This week, I'm joined by Jessica Farmer, one of the amazing coaches in my program Overcome Pornography for Good. I love her and everything she has to share about the important work we do in the world. This week, she's here to discuss her tips for disclosing porn use in your relationship.
Jessica has a deep passion for helping people with their relationships and also runs her own business working with people whose spouses are struggling with a mental diagnosis. Even under the best of circumstances, relationships can be messy and complicated, and how you deal with disclosing your porn use in your relationship can have a massive impact on your relationship dynamics. If you need any help in this area, you’re in the right place.
Whether you are considering telling your spouse about your pornography use or you’ve already told them and it has become a point of contention, we’re exploring it all this week. Jessica shares her tips for disclosing your porn use to your partner, the potential issues that could arise from this, and how to work through and even embrace the messiness that comes as a result.
You are listening to the Overcome Pornography for Good podcast episode 137, Disclosure Tips with Jessica.
Welcome to the Overcome Pornography for Good podcast, the show that will teach you how to stop viewing pornography and never go back to it. If you want to learn how to train your brain out of a pornography habit, completely shame-free, then this is the show for you. I’m your host Sara Brewer, a certified life and faith-based coach.
Hey, you guys, I’m so excited about this interview, it is awesome. Before we dive in, I just want to let you know that my ecclesiastical leader training is now live. It’s going to be at the end of September, but you can go and sign up for it now.
This training is just $25 and it’s for ecclesiastical leaders who want specific training on how to help their people quit porn, how to help families feel more united, how to help their congregations navigate this challenge with grace and with research-backed techniques that will actually really give people the tools that they need to quit porn.
I’m so excited about it, it’s going to be great. So if you an ecclesiastical leader or maybe just some leader or volunteer in your community that works with youth, maybe you work with individuals and you counsel individuals, anyways, I wrote this for like bishops pastors in mind. But anyone who’s working in a volunteer role that wants to help their people with pornography can come sign up for it.
Even if you just want to learn about it and you’re not an ecclesiastical leader, you can come sign up for it. It’s SaraBrewer.com/leader-training, we’ll put that in the show notes. And hey, send this to your ecclesiastical leaders if you think it would be helpful for them, if you think they would be interested.
All right, you guys, enjoy this interview.
Sara: Hey, you guys, welcome to today’s podcast episode. Today I have Jessica Farmer here with me. Jessica, do you want to say hey?
Jessica: Yes. Hi, I’m so excited to be here.
Sara: Oh my gosh, we’re so excited for this interview. So Jessica is a coach in Overcome Pornography For Good. She works with me in the program and she takes one on one clients, and she’s just fabulous. I freaking love her. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit and tell us about you?
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, like you said, I work in Overcome Pornography For Good and I absolutely love it. The work we do is so, so important and good and fun, actually. You wouldn’t think that talking about pornography all day would be fun, but it really is. We have a great time with our clients and I love it.
I also work with people who have a spouse who is struggling with a mental diagnosis. So I do that in my own business. And so I do both, which is just the best. It’s just the best.
Sara: Those are two pretty big topics, like big.
Jessica: Yeah, it is. It can be kind of heavy sometimes.
Jessica: Yeah. I was actually thinking about that, because I was sick recently and I think, well because I was going to say I have always just been very obsessed with relationships. Like relationships are my jam. I just love them. And I think one of the reasons why is that relationships are complicated, even under the best of circumstances. But really they’re complicated and they’re messy.
And I was always that kid who was like playing in the mud. I’ve never been like a perfectionist or anything like that, and so I think that part of me just is like drawn to the complications, like the messiness of it. And the thing is, which I’m sure we’ll talk about later, but there’s so much beauty and richness in the messiness of it. And it’s like that’s where we get to see our humaneness and our goodness and our greatness, really, is in the complication and in the messiness.
Anyway, I’ve just always been super drawn to that. So yeah, I talk about the heavier topics.
Sara: Yeah, that’s awesome. I love it. And that’s a beautiful way to look at it. Was it in a coach meeting that I was talking about this? Or was it with Tina? I can’t remember. But I remember I said to them, I’m like, oh, I’m realizing that relationships, there’s not like a perfect thing that you can really shoot for.
It’s not like everything else in my life, because I’m a little perfectionistic, right? I’m like, okay, if I just set up this system and this system and this system, everything will just be perfect and work smoothly. But that’s not quite the same with relationships.
Jessica: Yeah, every relationship is different, whether it’s with a spouse, or with kids, or family members, or even friends, every relationship is different. And it’s like I’m coming to see it more as like every relationship is a new adventure, right? You get to uncover and you get to discover what’s going to be there. And that’s part of the excitement of it, it’s just its own thing that has never even existed before and you get to create this amazing thing.
Sara: I’m obsessed with that, I love that perspective. And let’s kind of dive into the topic because I know there are some people listening that are like, okay, Jessica, but we’re dealing with porn disclosure, this is actually ruining everything.
Jessica: Right. So, yeah, disclosure conversations are super hard. I don’t think there’s any way around that. They’re just going to be hard.
Sara: Yeah, and let’s set the stage just a little bit. Let me think. So that’s what we’re talking about today. That’s our topic, pornography disclosure. So you are viewing porn or you have been viewing porn and you need to tell your spouse, or you already have been talking about it with your spouse, but it seems to be a really big area of contention.
There’s a lot of hurt feelings. There’s a lot of just not quite sure how to handle it the best way and when to talk about it and how to talk about it and when it’s helpful and all the things. So we’re going to dive into the stickiness and the messiness of that today.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I think the first thing that we kind of just need to get out of the way is there is no right way. I think sometimes, especially when we have these things that can bring up a lot of big emotions, it’s like okay, if I word it exactly the right way, if I do it at exactly the right time, then it’s going to be easier or it’s going to go better if I do that.
And really there’s no magic pill, right? There’s no magic words that are going to help really make it easier. But that’s okay. Like I was saying earlier, the messiness really is what builds a strong relationship.
I think sometimes it’s like we shy away from the messiness, really, but it’s in these kinds of conversations that true closeness and intimacy is built. So just jump in ready to get messy and get and for it to be uncomfortable. And just let it be uncomfortable.
Sara: I love that you’re saying that. Thank you for that. And I actually was working with my therapist on a hard conversation I had to have recently and she said the same thing to me. She’s like, it’s not going to be perfect. And there’s no way to have a perfect conversation, so just kind of jump in.
Anyways, yeah, that’s really freeing and takes a ton of pressure off and helps you realize, oh, the intimacy is not in doing everything perfect.
Sara: So before we dive into more questions, though, I have to let you guys know one thing that just does in the program is she does a lot of relationship work. So she does work with one on one clients, but we also do relationship calls a couple of times a month. We do one call for the spouses of people who are struggling with porn, and one call for the actual person who’s struggling with porn. And right now Jess takes a lot of those calls, too.
So she is really, she’s got tons of training on relationships. She’s just a total expert here. And I’m really excited to have this conversation. So let’s dive into it.
First question, when should you disclose your porn use to your spouse?
Jessica: Yeah, I think as soon as possible. I mean, the old saying is, the best time to start was yesterday, but the second best time is to start today. And I think, to kind of preface this, the whole purpose of a disclosure conversation is to establish honesty in the relationship.
Sometimes we can get kind of confused with lots of different other reasons like accountability or we sometimes will go into the conversation and want our partner to help us feel less shame around it or help us feel better. But really, the main point of these disclosure conversations is to establish honesty.
Jessica: And it’s important to remember that because it’s so uncomfortable we tend to think like, okay, these conversations are hurting the relationship, right? I’m hurting my spouse. We’re destroying all trust, right? But really being honest, being open about what is going on for you, and in the relationship, that’s going to build trust. Even if there’s that disruption, ultimately, it is leading to a more trusting and a more honest relationship.
Sara: Yeah, that’s so great, great, great. I love that. Because of some things you said, right, a lot of times people will say, well, if I tell them what I’ve done, that’s going to break the trust.
Sara: No, not being honest and open about that is what breaks trust.
Jessica: And I know, you’ve talked a lot here on the podcast about betrayal trauma that can happen a lot of times with the spouse when this kind of comes up. And really the most pain that comes in betrayal trauma isn’t actually because of the porn use, it’s because of the secrecy and the dishonesty that happens afterwards, right?
That’s what can be really traumatizing. Most of the time your spouse can at least kind of wrap their mind around the porn use, right? It’s like they can understand, at least a certain level, of why this is a thing for you. But it’s not being honest and not being open that that’s where that betrayal comes from.
So as soon as you can do that in a really grounded place, that’s really the best time to talk about it, to bring it up.
Sara: Yeah, really good. And, well, let’s talk about this, because we did mention this a little bit. But the main purpose is to build trust, it is not to make sure that your partner is going to really feel happy.
Sara: And it’s also not for them to help you and maybe help you work through it and be a counseling type figure to help you feel less shame around it. It’s also not for accountability. Let’s talk about that a little bit.
Sara: What does that look like? Should my spouse be my accountability partner or not?
Jessica: Yeah, generally we would say no. You don’t want your spouse to be your accountability partner for a couple of reasons. First of all, your spouse in all of this, especially if there’s that betrayal, trauma, they’re dealing with a lot, right? And they might be kind of saturated in their own stuff, right? Their own feelings that they’re trying to work through and they don’t have the capacity to hold that space for you.
Which is totally okay, right? That’s part of their healing. And it doesn’t mean that it’s always going to be that way, but for right now they don’t have the capacity to be that accountability partner for you.
Sara: And they don’t to be and that’s not their role. And tons of love and support to those spouses.
Jessica: Yes. Oh, absolutely. And so when you’re looking for an accountability partner, if you want one, right? You don’t necessarily need to have an accountability partner, but if that’s something that you want, you’re looking for somebody who can really hold space for you, right? Who can kind of show you lots and lots of compassion.
And it helps if they’ve been where you are, if they’ve been through that process themselves. And sometimes an accountability partner is going to kind of call you on some of your crap, right? They’re going to kind of be that sounding board for you and so you want to have somebody who is maybe a little bit more distanced from the emotion of it.
Sara: There’s a reason for one on one coaching, like your clients do great accountability with all the other stuff that we do.
Sara: There’s the space to be able to do that.
Jessica: Yes, we have so many. I think that’s one of the biggest benefits of our program is that there’s lots of different places where you can find that compassion and find that holding space, right?
Sara: And also the honesty of like, well, here’s what you’re really doing.
Sara: And we love you.
Jessica: Yeah. And so, yeah, that’s a great place to find that accountability for sure.
Sara: Cool. Awesome. Okay, so do you recommend telling them every single time that you do slip up? Or is it like maybe not every single time, but you kind of tell them that you’re working through it?
Jessica: Yeah, I think that’s an individual thing. Some spouses want to know every time and some spouses don’t. And it can change, right? Like as your spouse is healing and working through their stuff, they may decide, okay, I don’t really need to know every time.
I’ve had clients before who they established like a 24 hour rule kind of thing. Like if you view porn, then I want to have a conversation about it within 24 hours. And that can work for some people, it might not work for everybody.
I think the biggest thing there is that you have a conversation together about it. Like what is going to work for you, for you as individual people, as an individual couple. What’s going to work for you, and then stick with it, right? Whatever the plan is, whatever that looks like, you want to both be on the same page about it and both be genuinely okay with the plan. And then stick to it.
Because sometimes I’ll have clients that feel like, okay, she wants me to tell her every time, but I’m not really actually okay with that. So they might agree to the plan, but then when push actually comes to shove, they’re not really willing to do that. And so just having that open and honest conversation and coming to a decision together that works for both of you.
Sara: What’s another option if it’s not every single time? Because we do hear that, either it just brings up a ton of stuff and they don’t want to have to go through that every day. What are some other options?
Jessica: I’ve had some clients who do kind of like a monthly check-in. And that actually, because in the program we talk a lot about we don’t focus on how many days we’ve gone without viewing porn. And sometimes having that monthly check-in can be really helpful because it’s just kind of more of like, okay, tell me where you’re at. Tell me where are you? Are you still working on this? Do you feel like you’re making progress? As opposed to focusing on, okay, I’ve viewed this many times.
Sara: Day to day to day to day, which can get pretty discouraging, pretty quickly.
Sara: I love that. And so maybe like taking a step back and looking at all of the general overall progress, all the different indicators that we have in the program, like what program work have you completed? How is your relationship with yourself? How many urges have you processed? How are your mindfulness skills? How’s your buffering skills?
You can look at all these other things, month to month instead of like, okay, this day I slipped up, right?
Sara: I love that, that’s a good idea, too.
Jessica: Yeah. I think also, it’s important to mention that a lot of times the spouse will, because there’s been kind of that breach in trust, like if there’s been a lot of secrecy in the past, they might have a lot of questions, right? And they might want to know a lot more details at first just to kind of re-establish that trust and like is my spouse going to be honest with me? Are they going to actually tell me?
And so that’s okay, right? In that case you kind of work out together what’s going to work to make sure that her needs are filled and his needs are filled.
Sara: Really good, thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, keeping in mind that the purpose of these disclosures is to build trust, and not just to like, you might think you’re protecting your spouse by not telling them when they want to know.
Jessica: Yeah, and another thing with that is like we mentioned earlier about sometimes we come into these conversations wanting to maybe have our spouse help us feel better about what is happening. And really, it’s your responsibility to kind of work through your emotions before that conversation.
It’s totally natural for these kinds of conversations to, like we were saying, it might bring up a lot of shame. It can bring up a lot of uncomfortable emotions like shame, fear, disappointment, anger even sometimes. It can bring up a lot of uncomfortable emotions for us, right?
And so it’s important to take some time before the conversation to kind of work through your own emotions because then it’s going to help you stay grounded in the conversation to really stay kind of level if your spouse kind of gets really angry or has a big reaction, right? Then you’re able to be kind of the steady one in the conversation so she can experience whatever feelings are coming up for her and you don’t get dysregulated in the process.
Sara: Yeah, really good. So that brings us to the next question. What about when my spouse or if my spouse gets really, really upset? It seems like it destroys her and she, she or he, right, it brings up all of this. Maybe they’re really self-conscious, maybe you feel like you’ve destroyed them and they’re really upset.
Jessica: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is your partner is allowed to have whatever feelings about it that they need to have, right? Like you said, they might be angry. They might feel really self-conscious. They might be really hurt. There’s lots of things that can come up with that.
And the fact that it’s actually kind of, I don’t know if I necessarily want to say it’s a good thing for them to kind of blow up. But, again, kind of remembering that the point is honesty, right? You being honest in the disclosure and her being honest in whatever feelings she’s feeling about that disclosure.
So she can, and we’re saying she but it can be he or she. But your partner can be, they can feel whatever they need to feel because, like we said, they’re going through a lot, right? It’s a completely different kind of situation for them than it is for the one disclosing. And so your job in those conversations is to just hold space for them to experience whatever emotions they need to experience, which is a hard thing to do.
Jessica: Let’s just say that, it’s not an easy thing.
Sara: You just hold space, you just let them feel. You just have all those emotions, you just feel them, it’s easy.
Jessica: Yeah, work through it and it’s fine.
Sara: I love that you bring up if you can get grounded and if you can work through a lot of that before you have these conversations. And the more you can do that for yourself, right, we talk about this in the podcast and we work through it really deeply in the program, feeling your emotions and being comfortable with the discomfort of those sensations. If you can do that for yourself, it gets a lot easier to do that for your partner without making it mean something is really, really wrong here.
Jessica: Right. Yeah, and I think that’s kind of the fear, right? It’s like I’ve broken something and it’s never going to go back to the way it was. And that’s not true, right? Emotions, whether they’re big or small or whatever, have a shelf life. So you and your spouse are going to work through it. And these conversations are a temporary thing.
Even if they might last days or weeks or sometimes even months, right, it’s temporary. You’re going to work through it, your spouse is going to work through it. It’s not always going to be uncomfortable. But you’ve got to get through the discomfort to get to the other side.
Sara: That’s good to remember, too. Sometimes we’re like, oh no, we’ve ruined it, it’s always going to be ruined.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, but the better that you can get, and again it comes with practice, right? The first conversations that you have like this you’re going to get dysregulated, she’s going to get dysregulated, right? It’s going to get kind of messy, right? Messy and crazy. And that’s okay. It’s a learning process for both of you and you’re both trying to figure out what it looks like for you together to figure this out together.
Sara: Yeah. And I was talking to Andrea, do you know Andrea?
Jessica: Andrea Jess?
Sara: Yeah, I was talking to her a little bit, she’s awesome. I’m going to have her come on the podcast sometime too. So she works with spouses who are working through infidelity. And I was talking to her about this and she was saying, kind of changing to like what is it that you really want in this relationship, right?
Like the intimacy, and the trust, and the support, and the knowing that we’re going to work through whatever comes up and I’ve got your back. And also that I’m going to be honest and honor myself through all of this. These are all gorgeous, beautiful relationship things that really, really deepen a connection, that takes going through that messy, icky mud to get there.
Jessica: Yeah, I tell my clients all the time it’s like before this happens, right, before there’s this kind of rupture in the relationship, it tends to be kind of what Aimee Gianni, she calls pretend, polite and parallel relationships, right? We’re getting along. Everything is fine. It’s very kind of surface-y peaceful.
But this kind of rupture in the relationship can be a massive catalyst to produce that deeper, closer intimacy and connection in the relationship. And it almost always kind of takes something like that, whether it’s pornography use or illness, or children can do this, right?
Sara: Faith transitions.
Jessica: Yeah, faith transitions. All of these kinds of difficulties, it opens us up, really, and kind of forces us to stop pretending with each other and to be real and to be totally honest. And there is just this beautiful thing that comes out of that when you’re able to tolerate the discomfort of it and you just create this beautiful relationship that becomes sacred, right? It’s kind of that refiners fire that really makes it into something truly beautiful, as opposed to just calm.
Sara: Yeah. What if your person or the person you’re working through this with doesn’t want to go there and wants to just keep things and ignore things and push things down and push things away and they’re not ready for that?
Jessica: Yeah, that’s a good question because that does happen. And I think sometimes it’s being willing to choose them where they’re at, right? Like, this is my partner and this is where she’s at right now. She’s not in a place where she can go deeper, and I’m going to choose her anyway. I’m going to stick with her and when she’s ready, then we’ll go there. But she’s not ready yet.
And having kind of patience with your partner wherever they’re at. And that again, like that in and of itself builds the relationship and creates that feeling of safety because your partner is going to feel that. Anytime there’s pressure or pushing to do something that you’re not ready for, it creates kind of, what’s the word? I want to say unsafety, but I don’t think that’s a word.
Sara: We can use it, it can create unsafety.
Jessica: Okay, unsafety. It creates unsafety in the relationship. And so anytime that you’re just accepting them wherever they’re at, that’s going to create safety. Which is going to make it feel more comfortable to move into that space whenever she’s ready.
Sara: Yeah, really good. Thank you. Okay, what about, this is a question we get a lot too, how can I be sorry without falling into shame? Or I’m having this conversation with my partner and they want me to be a lot more sorry than maybe I want to be. And then that brings up like, well, that sounds bad, I should be really, really sorry. Like, you know, all things. So let’s talk about that.
Jessica: Yeah. It’s so good and it is, it’s tricky. Especially if there’s that, because sometimes your spouse might have the expectation that you are going to feel lots of shame.
Sara: Yeah, and grovel.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah. And they kind of want you to feel really bad because they’re seeing that as a marker of, okay, this means he’s actually going to change, right? And so I think it’s just reassuring your spouse that, no, I’m serious about changing. I know that this is something that’s not going to be good for our relationship and I’m well aware of that and I’m working on it.
Just reassuring them that you are taking it seriously and that you’re taking their feelings about it seriously. Because that’s really where that comes from, is they’re wanting to know that you’re taking their feelings into consideration. And so reassuring them of that and maybe doing some kind of internal fact checking, right?
Like remembering that it’s okay to check your own shame. Remembering that this doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person. It doesn’t mean that you’re a bad husband. It doesn’t mean anything, really, about you. And it’s okay if maybe she thinks differently.
Jessica: And she’s going to work through all of that in her own time and in her own way and it’s okay.
Sara: Yeah, there’s so much conditioning on both sides around it. It’s not a simple relationship fix. And I’ve talked about this in depth with Lindsay, so go and listen to those episodes if you want to. But we really dive into, I think it’s the relationship spirals episode, all of the conditioning for women around this and why that is so, so, so difficult.
And so we say all this with all the validation and love and support for spouses who are struggling a lot. And, like you said, they can believe those things and have those things and think those things and the shame-y things and that doesn’t mean that you need to be operating from shame.
Jessica: Yeah. And I think, again, just a shout out to all of the listeners who are going through this, because it’s hard work. It’s a lot of work to be able to do that, right? To hold on to your own self and your own beliefs in these kinds of conversations where your spouse is maybe coming from a completely different space. Being able to hold on to that unshamed perspective, it’s a lot of work and it takes a lot of emotional maturity.
And so shout out, it’s amazing, it’s awesome to see that in our clients. To see how they’re able to make that shift. And it’s just powerful. It’s so good.
Sara: Yeah, so good. Thank you. Okay, anything else? Did we miss anything or do you have any other disclosure tips for us?
Jessica: Yeah, I think it’s important too in these conversations because sometimes, you know, whenever there’s a lot of big emotions it might feel – Like if your partner is having a lot of big emotions it might start to feel unsafe for you. And it’s totally okay to set some boundaries around these conversations. And it’s okay to take breaks, right?
If you feel yourself getting really amped up, or dysregulated, or having a hard time, it’s okay to say, okay, I need to just take a break from this conversation. It’s getting kind of intense, let’s take a 20 minute break and then we’ll come back and keep going because I want to continue this conversation. I think this is good, but I just need a break to kind of calm myself down. And that’s totally okay.
Also, it’s okay to set boundaries. Meaning like if your partner starts name calling or getting really aggressive with you or in any way that starts to feel unsafe for you, it’s okay to say, hey, I’m not interested in having this conversation, it’s not going to be productive if we’re name calling or if we’re getting into communication skills that aren’t really helpful. It’s okay to say I am going to back off for right now.
And so kind of go into that conversation knowing where those lines are for you. Like what are the rules that you’re going to have for those conversations? Because it can get heated, right? Sometimes it can be hard and so kind of having those ground rules established, in the best of circumstances having them established together, but even if you just kind of have those boundaries set for yourself, that’s going to be really helpful.
Sara: Yeah, awesome. So what would some of those ground rules be? Like name calling, there’s no name calling.
Jessica: Yeah, no name calling.
Jessica: Yeah, physical for sure. Yelling, right, getting really loud. It’s really kind of dependent on what feels good and comfortable for you. Another one might be, okay, in this conversation we’re not going to throw around divorce, right? If that comes up, that’s going to be a different conversation.
Yeah, just kind of those things, those kinds of things that are going to help provide safety. Even establishing upfront it’s okay for you to feel whatever you need to feel, and it’s okay for me to feel whatever I need to feel. And we’re going to make this a safe place for both of us, just establishing that ahead of time.
Sara: Cool, I love that. So, so good. So helpful. I mean, I’m even thinking this is going to be helpful in a conversation I’m having with Coleby, my spouse, later because our five year old is starting kindergarten and there’s new routines and we’ve just got to figure out how we’re going to manage all of the household labor together. And this is all going to be great and helpful for that, too.
Sara: Of course we’re talking about pornography in this conversation, but, man, I’m going to take a lot of this and use it.
Jessica: Yeah, it does, it applies to any kind of conversation that you’re having, right? Because those emotions can get going in lots of different areas.
Sara: I do all the work. Well why are you making this a man versus woman thing? There’s so much.
Sara: Yeah, really good. Okay, awesome. Thank you so, so much. I love this conversation. It’s so good, so helpful. We’re going to push it to everyone, especially in the program.
One thing that Jess and I have talked about doing is a little bit more relationship milestone work in the course because it’s just a whole other beast and dragon that we want to offer even more support with.
So anyways, if you want to come work with Jess, she’s in the program. She’s awesome. She will be a great help with all the relationship stuff that we’re working through. Do you have any one on one spots right now? Oh, no, you just have a few and I’m sure they’re already almost booked.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah.
Sara: You can get on the waitlist for her too. She’s got a busy fall coming up, so taking a little bit less one on one clients. But she still does a lot of Ask A Coach work and group call work and she’s still there. So come join us in Overcome Pornography For Good if you really want some extra help and to dive into this. So anything else?
Jessica: The group calls, I love the group calls. So yeah, come and join us.
Sara: They’re so great. They’re so great and so helpful. Oh my gosh.
Jessica: Well thank you for having me, this was so much fun.
Sara: Yeah. You’re welcome, thank you.
All right, you guys, talk to you later. Have a great week. Bye bye.
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