Episode 156: OCD with Jill Freestone

Welcome to the Overcome Pornography For Good podcast where we take a research-based, trauma informed and results focused approach to quitting porn. This approach has been revolutionary and changed thousands and thousands of lives. I’m your host, Sara Brewer. 

Sara: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode. This week I have Jill Freestone here. Jill Freestone is one of my good friends who I just adore. Jill, do you want to say hey? 

Jill: Hello, I’m so honored to be with you.

Sara: Yeah. Jill is an amazing coach and she is an expert in OCD and scrupulosity. Is it okay if I call you an expert, because that’s absolutely how I see you? 

Jill: Sure, but I have to defer to the experts that I look up to. 

Sara: Okay. Yeah, we’ll let you do that. We’re going to talk OCD and scrupulosity, and I know it might feel kind of like a random thing to be on a podcast for people who want to quit porn, but oh my gosh, I’ve wanted to do this interview for a long time. It’s so, so, so relevant.

The things we’re going to talk about, you’re going to really relate to this. It’s going to be so helpful. And I’m excited to also send clients and people who we see these signs of scrupulosity and OCD to in this podcast in the future. So anyways, I’m very excited about our conversation today. Like I said, Jill’s a really amazing coach. She specializes in, well, actually you tell us. Tell us what you coach and specialize in and all the things. 

Jill: Yeah. So big emotions, mainly anxiety and anger and how those relate to relationships. So I coach kids and teens and parents and sometimes whole families or just one individual and how that big emotion is causing a rift. 

Sara: Oh, so good. Jill has such safe energy and is one of my favorite coaches that I’ve ever met and been able to be friends with. 

Jill: Oh my goodness. 

Sara: I think you’re brilliant. I think that you are safe. I think that you are wise. I just really adore you and love you. So anyways, so glad to have you. 

Jill: Wow. Wow, thank you. 

Sara: Yeah. And actually did we meet in France or did we meet before then? 

Jill: That is a really good question. 

Sara: No, we met in Lindsay’s certification. 

Jill: That’s true. That’s true.

Sara: But the first time we met in person, didn’t we meet in France? 

Jill: Maybe. I feel like I saw you at some event though. 

Sara: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There were some events around. 

Jill: Like some Pride event or something. I don’t know if that was before or after or what. 

Sara: Yeah, something like that. Something in Provo. So, yeah, cool. Okay, so let’s dive into OCD. Can you tell us about OCD and why this would relate to people who want to quit porn? 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. So porn can be very shame-based and religious-based. And OCD, when it grabs onto something that you value so much, which is religion, can become scrupulosity OCD, which is just a form of OCD, religious and moral-based. And so usually if you really want to not look at porn, you usually have some religious belief for that or moral belief around it. 

Sara: Yeah, that’s what all the studies show, right? It’s the moral incongruence that creates a lot of the pain because of the moral beliefs, and typically religious beliefs. Which is good, good and bad. And we’re not saying bad and we’re not saying great. 

Jill: Well, it’s that that causes you to not want to view it. If not, you would just view it. And so it’s something you really care about. And so you’re fighting to do something that’s important to you. And when it becomes an obsession and it feels like you’re unable to use the normal tools to overcome this, to think it through, that it’s not getting better, OCD may be present. 

And it’s important to look at that. If you have used the normal strategies, met with a religious leader and it’s not working or it seems to be getting worse and you’re feeling more and more shame and horrible about yourself, like what’s wrong with me? That’s another indication that we want to look, because if we can rule out OCD, then we’ll find out what’s causing this. 

There may be trauma involved and we may need to use a body-based tool and somatic healing. I’m in my somatic experiencing practitioner training and it’s a three-year program. And that really intense training on removing trauma in the body is going to work more effectively than trying to think through things. 

Sara: Right. 

Jill: And so then, again, if it’s not, if it’s OCD, then we want to use a completely different tool. So part of the reason this is so important is that we have the right diagnosis, whether it’s OCD or trauma or just needing the type of work that you do with your clients that’s so beautiful, so that we’re healing it the right way and not making it worse. 

Sara: Yeah, because if you have OCD or scrupulosity, some of these other tools are not going to work. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Sara: So tell me a little bit about that. What is OCD? What doesn’t work with OCD? How would you know you had OCD or scrupulosity? And I want to hear about the difference between those too. 

Jill: Yeah, so maybe I’ll answer that and come back to how it relates to porn because there’s quite a few things. Scrupulosity is just a subtype of OCD, meaning that you could just say scrupulosity or you could say scrupulosity OCD. And so there’s lots of different types of OCD and it’s just one type of it. And it’s the type that is related to doing what’s right or what’s moral or ethical and having a real strict adherence to that. 

And so this type of OCD can also jump a little bit to things that are really important to you ethically. It could jump onto things politically or even in your school district or something that has to do with morality and ethics and you really care about those things, like it’s deeply important to you. 

Sara: This is probably what we would see the most of in my program, the scrupulosity. 

Jill: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And so the solution to this is learning to sit in uncertainty, where scrupulosity and any form of OCD is trying to find certainty. So that’s another thing to look for, is if someone’s trying to find certainty in some way. But the trick is with faith, we want to actually let go of certainty and just have faith. 

The phrases we use in church like, I know this is true, or some of the phrases just feel like solid truth where it’s a spiritual form of truth. But it’s different than logical knowing in your head, like a mental knowing. And so that can really, again, mess with that OCD. 

Sara: So can I give an example? And please, I’m just going to say stuff, but if I’m wrong, tell me. Or if I’m saying it wrong, tell me, please. Because sometimes when we’re talking about OCD I find myself really tiptoeing like, I don’t know if I’m saying it the right way. And so I’m just going to say it and then I’m open to all the corrections. 

So scrupulosity, and there’s also diagnosed OCD and diagnosed scrupulosity, but then there can be scrupulous tendencies or OCD tendencies. And so you can find these tendencies in yourself and not – 

Jill: Yes, and that’s actually debatable. 

Sara: Oh, okay. 

Jill: Because I did not get diagnosed because I thought I only had scrupulous tendencies for years. And I was like, oh, it’s not bad enough. It’s not, it’s not OCD. It’s just tendencies. So some therapists disagree on this fact. Some say, well, yeah, there’s some tendencies, but they’re not completely compulsive enough. And my therapist was saying, well, it’s either OCD or it’s not. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: So it’s debatable is what I’m saying. It depends on who you talk to, but the thing is, if you have tendencies go get it checked out because my life is 100% better.

Sara: Yeah. Okay, so an example of scrupulosity, like really needing to be certain. So especially when it comes to sexuality, and we were texting about this yesterday, like sexuality, purity, being clean. It can show up as like, am I okay? Am I clean enough? Am I certain that I’m okay and that I’m pure? Especially with all the purity culture stuff. 

And the reason that I know this and I feel like I connect with this so well is because I absolutely 100% experienced this, especially as a young adult and teenager and it was excruciating. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Sara: Excruciating, like needing that certainty. So it can show up as like always feeling like you need to confess, even if there’s not really anything to confess. Or someone told you that you’re okay, but you just don’t feel like it. Like you have a religious leader that’s really obsessive compulsive around like, is this okay or is this not okay? Or am I okay? Or am I clean enough? 

Jill: Yeah, you’re seeking reassurance is what that’s called. And that seeking reassurance to know for sure never ends because once you find, like if someone tells you you’re okay, you say you never feel okay, a lot of people feel temporary relief. They’re like, oh, okay. I’m okay for this minute, this hour, this day, but then it comes back again. 

And that’s where that cycle is showing that it’s OCD, is that if you feel it and then it comes back and it comes back, oh wait, am I sure? Am I sure? And so it can lead you to be repenting in your head all day long or multiple appointments to a bishop or to a friend or someone continually seeking that. 

I wasn’t doing that kind so I was like, oh, I don’t have OCD. But there’s also the kind where you’re preventing yourself from ever doing anything wrong. And then you’re suffering in anxiety in this weird perfection state that’s impossible, but whatever. 

Sara: Yeah. So with my pornography clients, my clients who struggle with porn, this could also show up as always feeling bad. Like even if you’ve viewed porn, you’re working through it, you repented, but still never feeling enough. Is that right? 

Jill: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sara: Like going to the temple and just feeling in so much anguish and agony because of it. 

Jill: Yeah. It’s like they’re not able to accept the teaching that your worth is 100%, no matter what.

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: They can’t really comprehend that or believe that. They’re just like, I always have to earn my worth, and so I have to do certain things. And then even if I do it, well, there’s this belief like, well, I probably didn’t completely repent enough. I didn’t suffer enough or I didn’t tell them exactly what it was. And I’ve had people coming back, well, did I tell you about this little thing and about this little thing? 

Sara: That was me as a young adult. It was so embarrassing. I would be like, oh no, something woke me up in the middle of the night, oh crap, what if I have to tell my Bishop about this? And it was like the tiniest little, like, oh, but so embarrassing to go talk about. But I had to or I could not feel okay. 

Jill: Yeah. And again, usually it’s a temporary okay. And then your brain finds something else. Because if you feel that relief, then what it’s doing is it’s telling your brain that it really was dangerous to have that thought. And so then the next time a thought comes up it’s like, that was dangerous because I felt relief after I talked about it. And so I must talk about it again to feel that relief. And then it speeds up the cycle. Instead of saying, oh, whatever. That’s just a weird thought. Nope, I’m not listening to that. 

Sara: Yeah. So I can see this with clients too, where they feel like they always have to tell their spouse every tiny little thing. 

Jill: Which is unhealthy as well.

Sara: Yeah, okay. 

Jill: So there’s specific shame-based teachings that they think are actually true. And so if they’re attaching 100% percent truth to those teachings, that can mess them up more than someone who’s like, well, that prophet or that leader, that person just said it and that’s their opinion. People are able to have some uncertainty in that, some gray. They’re like, no, it was said on this date. It’s 100% percent true, so I’m messed up. I’m the problem. They’re unable to have any gray in the middle of that.

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And so there’s some more of that shame and – 

Sara: Can I just say really quick – Sorry, I keep interrupting you, but it’s because I’m so excited about this. 

Jill: Oh, please. Please. 

Sara: But can I just say too, if that’s you and you’ve experienced this and you are really holding on, this isn’t like a shame thing like it’s your fault for thinking that way. A lot of people were taught to think that way. 

Jill: Yes. Well, we’re told too that your leader is like God. And when they say this, this is what God is saying. 

Sara: So it’s not your fault. 

Jill: And to respect authority. So we’re taught this, but also OCD is a bully in your brain that is literally bullying you and telling you you’re no good. And it’s not matching up with what your moral beliefs are. And so, yeah, it’s not you at all. 

Sara: Yeah. I just want to make sure that we clarify this, because I know myself, I’d be like, oh, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just see things grayer? 

Jill: Yeah, if I had been like that other person. Like, no, they don’t have a bully in their brain beating them up. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: Yeah, and it’s not you. You are not your OCD. This is just this part of your brain that has learned to think that way. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: Yeah. And so bishops tend to set up appointments or like talking with your spouse about it or however you do this, that you have to keep coming in every week or every two weeks and have this accounting. That can actually, that can feed into OCD. If you can see that, oh, every week I’ve got to come in and I get to repent and I’ll feel better and I get to confess. And you feel that that has to happen versus, like it’s different if OCD is involved is what I’m trying to say. 

Sara: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit, like why is that a problem? What does the OCD or the scrupulosity do that with? 

Jill: So you have to look at it and see, why am I doing this? Like, if I’m making this appointment with my bishop, spouse, whoever, as a way to find relief from this obsession that I’ve got, then that’s feeding into it. If I’m doing this as a way to remind myself what’s important and to remind myself of my goals and my values and OCD is not involved, then it would be helpful.

It’s just whether or not OCD is involved. And it’s kind of like the example earlier of someone who can think in the gray and someone who can’t, it feeds differently into them. And so if they’re thinking every week, like, oh, okay, I’m going to feel better and I can obsess about this until then, then I’ll get that reassurance. And then they start like, oh, I have to have this appointment every week. I have to have this conversation with them.

And then they will just, it just increases the amount of the brain obsesses on those things. 

Sara: Yeah. And the reason that’s a problem is because that can be really painful. It can create so much distress. And the actual porn use, I’m assuming it doesn’t help with the actual porn viewing problem.  

Jill: I assume it would increase it. 

Sara: Yeah. Increase it, right? Yeah. 

Jill: But it can also just increase the amount of time your brain is spending and the amount of physical distress and anxiety you’re experiencing. And it’s not leading you towards healing. 

Sara: So that’s because I can see some people being like, okay, but all right, if I’m just a little obsessive with confessing, why is that a bad thing or why would this be? And it’s because of the mental anguish. 

Jill: Yeah, it’s not really taking you towards healing either. It’s just focused on confessing, not letting atonement heal you.

Sara: Yeah. It’s not focused on healing. It’s just focused on that immediate relief that comes from. 

Jill: Yeah, and it’s keeping you confessing. Yeah. So when someone is also really, really focused on understanding porn and they’re researching it or trying to understand the tools that you’re teaching them, like really into coaching or the model, instead of actually just sitting there, sitting with things and doing the work. 

It’s like their focus shifts away from that and they’re wanting to – Like see that needing to understand it and do it right 100%? Or like, if I could just do this right. If I can get the right thought or the right model or the right, if I can do this correctly. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: It’s a different focus than I’m just going to do this and fail occasionally and just keep trying and working. There’s a different focus or emphasis on that. 

Sara: Yeah, which we talk about a lot. We talk about being able to fail and using failures as steps forward. But what I’m hearing you say is the OCD/scrupulosity can really keep you from being able to do that because you’re so –  

Jill: Yeah. Well, and it’s where the OCD focuses. Because if it’s scrupulosity, it’s going to focus on things you value. And if you really value understanding things completely and knowing how to do them and doing them right, kind of like that’s just an important thing to you, then you’re going to focus on that mental understanding instead of just the healing. Again, you’re focused on confessing instead of healing. 

Sara: Yeah, okay. 

Jill: It’s subtle. See how that’s really subtle? 

Sara: So good though. It’s so good. It’s so subtle and so good. 

Jill: It’s so important because you’re going to be stuck if you don’t see that. So the same thing is if you just spend a lot of time thinking about it. If you’re not just like researching, but you’re just thinking about recovery or thinking about something, spending the time thinking all day long but not doing because you’re just like, if I think about this a lot, then I won’t mess up. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: That becomes the obsession. The same thing can happen with your sexual orientation. If you’re trying to see, am I gay or am I straight? Am I checking for arousal? So if I look at porn to see if I’m having arousal or am I checking my body? And so you continue to keep checking the body response. And I mean, that can happen too. Like, well, if I’m healed, I’ll look at porn and I might not experience an arousal or something. 

So it could just start to get twisted a little bit. Or like starting to count how many times this has happened. Or there’s also avoidance. Like you’re just completely avoiding things because you don’t want to have that to happen because it’s so distressing. 

Sara: Yeah, really good. 

Jill: Yeah, or you’re kind of stuck until you get the right feeling either too. You’re like, well, I should have this right feeling. So maybe I will show you some of the basic characteristics of OCD, because we didn’t say that, just so that they understand that OCD needs to have an obsession or an intrusive thought that you’re obsessed about. And then a compulsion, which is a behavior that could be just in your head or it can be a physical behavior that you do to try to relieve the anxiety from that obsession. And then it also needs to be interfering with your life. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And the trick about that, so those three things need to be present for diagnosis to happen. But for me, it was happening my whole life so I didn’t know that it was interfering with my life. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: I was constantly, just my whole life my brain was that busy and I was rewarded for my religious behaviors and my moral behaviors and just the ethical way that I behaved, which is good. They were all good. Like a lot of it was good things I was doing, but there is an element of freedom and agency that wasn’t there. 

Sara: Tell us a little bit more about that if you don’t mind. And so it was just like, for you, what did it look like, the obsession compulsive? 

Sara: Yeah, so I obsess about people not – I don’t want people to unnecessarily suffer and it’s really intense. I just see that all the time when it comes up and I know what to do. Or that I will be misunderstood, so I need to explain things perfectly and I need certainty around certain things. Not everything. Like there’s a lot of rigid black and white thinking, but it’s only in certain areas too. Like there are some areas where gray is no problem.

Things need to be right. So I have it just right. Like there’s just this, something is just wrong or it’s just right. Rules need to be followed, keeping people happy, needing to control things. And so then some of the compulsions would be needing to save people or needing to make sure people understand. Making sure people aren’t suffering ignorantly or having long conversations to be understood. And believing that it’s possible that I can be understood, following rules, researching, checking, controlling, analyzing, or suffering myself so someone else won’t have to. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And so a lot of it is the OCD OCD-ing upon itself for me, where a lot of it’s in its head. Like spending all this time thinking about thoughts and over analyzing, which is similar to self-coaching. And that’s why you can think you’re doing a good thing in thinking about your thoughts, but it can be unhealthy. 

Sara: Yeah. I see if it’s just continual and it becomes obsessive and it’s like all that we’re focusing on instead of getting – 

Jill: Just living your life and just being, yeah. And so some of the myths are that it’s like, oh, OCD is just a preference for being organized or for details. And people joke about that. 

Sara: Or like Monk. It’s like the TV show Monk, where he just always needs to wash his hands. 

Jill: Yeah, because they think that’s the only kind of OCD. Sure, that’s a very important one. But that’s only one of, I don’t know, 15, 20 subtypes. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And so when people joke about it and say, I’m so OCD, that’s pretty offensive to people because it’s not fun. 

Sara: Yeah, it’s not something to brag about. 

Jill: Yeah, or like when you line things up in order or symmetry and like, I’m so OCD. I’m like, no, most people that have OCD have messy houses. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: Or if they have to line it up, it’s torturous and they don’t want to do it. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: So the red flags, we talked about some of the things that someone might be doing. So just like if they are constantly seeking approval or reassurance and you’re like, we already helped you feel good about this and then you come back with the same issue – 

Sara: Which happens so much here with porn. That happens all the time with porn. 

Jill: Well, because it is a repeated thing. So you have to look at that and say, well, yes, you are going to see this again, but it’s like, what are you coming back for? Like what is the function? Why are you coming back to check if you’re okay? You already know exactly what Sara is going to say to you. If you already know, what is it you’re seeking? And can you just like, maybe I’m okay, maybe I’m not. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And so anyway, seeking for certainty to know for sure. A lot of time thinking about thoughts, trying to avoid anxiety by thinking about things. Getting coached on the same thing over and over again. Also, and still looking. Like if there’s unprocessed trauma, that can be a part of it as well.

Having like one topic or a narrow thing that you tend to focus on, because anxiety is about normal things. People are anxious about typical things like flying or driving or social anxiety or things like that. Where OCD, you have an anxiety about kind of a little bit more random or weird things. And so porn would be kind of a weird thing if you’re just highly fixated on that one thing, that one topic. 

Sara: Porn or maybe like purity or cleanliness. 

Jill: Yeah, or just one aspect of it. 

Sara: Yeah. Sexual purity, yeah. 

Jill: So we already talked about this, using the model or coaching to get the right result. Focusing on guilt and shame really heavily, lots of repenting, difficulty making decisions, having some kind of ritual or avoidance that they do around it.

And if you have to do this ritual to feel okay, like maybe you have to look at certain sites or you have to walk through your house in a certain pattern so that you don’t look at your phone or just like looking at those different rituals. Do you have to do the ritual in order to feel relief? 

Sara: What do you think of, you have to repent? Because I don’t know if that’s the same thing. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Sara: Because that’s also like a religious belief that you’re like, yeah, I have to repent and that’s a good thing. 

Jill: Totally. 

Sara: So how do we know if that’s OCD or like – 

Jill: Well, what do they mean by repent? Does that mean that every single time, you have to go to your religious leader? 

Sara: Or maybe you have to pray in a certain – 

Jill: Does it mean like, so you have to see what the reason they’re doing it. Do you teach people every time they see something, that that’s healthy to clear with God? Like, I don’t know. 

Sara: No, that’s not even a part of the program. 

Jill: Because it’s not religious-based. 

Sara: No, it’s not religious-based. No. 

Jill: And so if they’re doing that, you would have to look at – Because yes, we want to repent and be clean with God, but if it’s like – It’s just this fine line. I’m trying to give an example. I’m trying to think of how this would be when it’s okay and when it’s not okay. 

Sara: It’s like if you can’t feel better unless you do it. 

Jill: Yeah, or you feel – it’s how much shame is involved and how much you feel like the repenting is more important than just acknowledging this happens and I’m still okay. Like if it’s that – 

Sara: Or if you have to repent in a specific, certain way. 

Jill: Or a certain time, yeah. Because repentance isn’t a bad thing. 

Sara: No. We’re not saying repenting is OCD. But I see what you’re saying, right? There’s like this fine line that can be – 

Jill: I would need to hear someone talk about it. That’s why I’m hesitating. I would need to hear someone explain how they were doing it to be able to say, well, this sounds like you’re feeling trapped and stuck here instead of you’re like, oh yeah, I feel some remorse about this. I would like to feel clean and I’m just connecting with Jesus here and feeling clean. It’s not like this heavier shame based, got to earn my worthy type of thing. 

Sara: Okay. So a follow-up question here, because there is tons of that shame when we talk about it all the time, but that feels really conditioned and taught to a lot of people. And so how do we differentiate between, oh, this is something that I was just kind of conditioned to believe and think, the shame and fear, or it’s an OCD scrupulosity characteristic. 

Jill: Yeah. So what I have to do with a lot of my clients, especially anxiety and anger is they have a lot of that related to church things because they were taught that. So I do a lot of re-teaching of what non-shame based religion can sound like. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And say, hey, does this sound like what your religious leader could have been saying? What they meant, even though they said it in a very black and white way? What do you think the intention is underneath it? And so they’ll bring to me, I’m like, well, what’s the phrase that’s coming up in your brain? Now you’ve heard this in a talk or something, a scripture. 

And we take that line and say, what’s the intent? Even if it’s Jesus or a prophet, what is being taught here? What are you hearing in a black and white way? When you hear that, do you feel shame? Do you feel love? Are you motivated by fear and shame? Or are you motivated just by pure love for God or for someone else, for yourself? How are you acting? 

So we get to that point. And if that re-teaching can settle within them and then they feel free to act from that, that’s freeing them from what could look like OCD, but just needs to be re-taught. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: And so then they might still have that and it’s still compulsive for a while. And there’s, again, some of that healing that can happen, but you can still act that way. 

So I operate completely differently now from that love-based, religion is love-based for me now. But I still have that tendency to think in that way or to feel that, but I notice it really quickly.

Sara: Yeah. Okay, follow-up question. When you’re working with clients who are really struggling with this with anger, all the things, how might you talk about this in a way that doesn’t feel like maybe self-gaslighting themselves? Well, it’s just because I’m thinking about it this way, when maybe they really were harmed or they really were taught harmfully. How do you balance that and find that? 

Jill: Yeah. 

Sara: It’s a hard question. 

Jill: I had a client recently who said that. He says, I really feel like I’m gaslighting myself. And so we do a lot of sitting with the anger that they might feel about living so many years in a fear-based relationship with their religion or with God directly, and feel it and process that through in the body and really validate how that feels that it was not fair. It was not fun. It’s really heartbreaking to feel like you lived that way. 

And so helping them to feel that way and to say that, yeah, I interpreted it that way and a lot of other people did too, it wasn’t just me being crazy. But not everyone did. And it’s okay to be upset at the way a leader says something, but they can also still be a mouthpiece of God. However we want to say that, they can still be that and still say something that could cause harm for certain people. 

Because there’s somebody who thinks in the gray really naturally and they hear that phrase and they’re like, yeah, I know what he means. And they don’t obsess about it. They don’t get hurt by it. They still live from love. So it’s not so black and white completely. 

And so it’s really just taking it all apart and coming back to self-love and love of God and love of understanding. If you desire to be religious, bringing it back to that is the only way that you can function. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, and OCD is going to get right in the way of that. 

Jill: Yes, and that’s maddening too. And I’ve had clients say to me, I am so mad that OCD has messed with my faith, of all things. It could have taken anything else, but this is the thing I care about. And I said, that’s the tragic thing, is it grabs what you care about most. And so it’s just a lot of processing and just to be witnessed and seen.

And that’s what some people need is before they’re ready to do the ERP therapy that I’ve sent them to, is just to be witnessed. And that, yeah, this feels horrible. 

Sara: Yeah. Really good. Okay, so tell us a little bit about that. What do you do? If you’re like, this sounds kind of like me, this might be me. I’m not sure. 

Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m happy to talk to people. The thing to do though, is just to go get an evaluation. And make sure it’s not from just a therapist because this is newly understood correctly. 

And like I had a client who, was it 12 years ago? He was diagnosed with OCD, but he didn’t get the correct help. And so for the last 12 years he’s just been living in misery because exposure and response prevention, which is ERP, the best type of therapy for this and the only type that works wasn’t really understood that long ago. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: So go to, it has to be a therapist who is trained in ERP. And there are a couple of links, like no OCD and OCD. And we can put these in the show notes, or the anxiety and treatment center. Or just if you go to IOCDF.org, that’s the international OCD federation website where you can find a therapist there as well and just get an evaluation. 

And just also, often it’s normal to feel like having an identity crisis as you’re hearing this. And so if you’re in a panic, definitely reach out and get some help so that you can – And I can do a one-time session with people to just help somatically or to be witnessed to process back in to help regulate their nervous systems so that they’re feeling able to even go reach out. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: Because we just get fearful, like I said, your identity or your whole basis of thinking about religious things is wrong. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: That’s very disabling, right? 

Sara: Right, it’s really painful. Okay, yeah. Thank you so – 

Jill: And so if you’re wondering too, if it’s you’re just like, what’s the function of why I do this or the reason and the why of my thinking, like that can just kind of help you look at it like am I looking for certainty? Am I doing this repeatedly? How much anxiety do I feel if I don’t act on this? And kind of list what am I obsessing about? Is there something I feel like I need to do, a compulsion? 

Sara: Yes. 

Jill: And are things getting better or worse? How much time does it take out of my day? Is it making the daily routine hard? Those kinds of things you can look at. 

Sara: Nice. Yeah, thank you. One thing I want to mention, so I had Jill come train me and my coaches who work in the program. And one thing she had mentioned was the “for good.” Like that term, that phrase, “overcome porn for good” can create, like could potentially if someone’s struggling with OCD or scrupulosity – I keep saying OCD or scrupulosity, but it’s like the same, it’s just a subset. 

So anyways, that can be really challenging for someone. What might that look like? Like just a hyper fixation on have I really quit? 

Jill: Yeah. Am I healed? Have I got there yet? And they’re fixating on, like they might even stay with a coach or a therapist forever because they’ve got to get this completely for good. And I’m never going to feel an urge again or I’m never going to see it. Because we talk about being sober, but for an OCD person, that isn’t a good goal. 

Sara: Yes. Okay. So, so good. So I’m going to remind everyone, I did an episode on this, on reframing and redefining what it means to quit for good and that it doesn’t mean that we’re never going to slip up again. It doesn’t mean we’re never going to have an urge again. It doesn’t mean these types of things. We can look at it in a new way. 

It just means it’s not controlling our lives anymore.  And what does that mean? What does that look like? And we can reframe that in a way that is so much more empowering than maybe what we thought about it before. So go listen to that episode again. 

Jill: Yes, exactly. I love that you do that. I love the way you reframe that, it’s really important. It’s kind of like me, I can participate in religious things but it doesn’t rule and control me. The OCD doesn’t rule and control that. Like I have this, it’s like this space in your brain and more agency and freedom around porn or around religious things and porn. 

Sara: Yeah. So good. 

Jill: Yeah. So some of the other different things are like, you talk about hand-washing, like that’s contamination OCD. Or like having violent thoughts, that’s violent OCD. Or like perfectionism OCD, or responsibility OCD, sexual orientation. The religious one is scrupulosity or your identity or your religion, anything relationship OCD. Like is this a good relationship? Should I get married or not? Are they being unfaithful to me? Like all kinds of things related to the relationship. 

Or like death or existential or emotional contamination. Like you can catch personality traits of others. Body dysmorphic or like skin picking or hair pulling, like all those different types. So you see how it can just grab on to lots of different things. And it’s just important to understand so if you see it, you can call it out. 

Sara: Yeah. And those tests are really good because like you were saying, it’s something that is really misdiagnosed, but also missed like with therapists, in all sorts of therapy settings, coaching settings. 

Jill: Yeah, or they think, well, you can just think different and not pull your hair. And that’s not going to help.

Sara: Yes. Really good. Thank you. And just really, probably because I do have some experience with the scrupulosity side and especially with the purity culture stuff, I think that’s one of the main drivers to why I did start coaching on this and also why it works so well, the method that we teach. 

And so anyways, it’s just fascinating to me and I really wanted to talk about it. 

Jill: Yeah. I think maybe the thing with the exposure and response prevention, I had a client come to me and say, well, my therapist was trying to do exposures with me. And there’s a difference between just exposing yourself to it and using the response prevention part. And it’s tricky too, because you can start doing that and then OCD can jump and morph.

And it’s just really tricky, I mean, my therapist calls it a beast because it’s just slippery and it moves around. So that’s why it’s someone who really has experience in scrupulosity. And so if you just expose yourself to those things, and he was saying things like just trying to stop his OCD thoughts, like just trying to avoid those.

And that’s not the same thing where you have to actually learn to sit with uncertainty itself. It’s not just sitting with the porn urge, it’s finding uncertainty somewhere in there. So that’s where it’s a little more complicated and important to be doing it correctly for it to help you.

Sara: Got it. The exposure therapy. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Sara: Yeah, so you really want to make sure you have someone who is really specialized here, especially because it is such a misunderstood thing. 

So sitting with the uncertainty might, would that maybe look like sitting with the, I’m not sure if I’m okay? 

Jill: Yeah, and you have to say this really scary thing of like, maybe I am okay with God and maybe I’m not. And maybe I’m okay with porn and maybe I’m not. And maybe I need to repent right this minute and maybe I don’t. Maybe this is urgent and maybe it’s not. 

Sara: And then feeling that uncertainty in your body that is so painful, probably like with OCD, right? That’s probably the most painful thing that comes up is the uncertainty that people are trying to get rid of.

Jill: Yes, for sure. Yeah. Well, the anxiety is pretty strong, but the uncertainty is even worse because that’s why you would do a compulsion, to get rid of that. 

Sara: Yeah, so it’s increasing your capability to feel and feel safe in uncertainty. 

Jill: Yeah. And it’s not that you feel safe in it, it’s that you learn to just allow it to be there. Because it’s not a safe feeling, it’s just normal. It’s like, oh, okay. Kind of like it’s normal to have that feeling in the morning that you have to pee, but you don’t want to get out of bed. Like it is normal, but it is not comfortable. 

Sara: Yeah. I see, I see, I see. 

Jill: Like, oh yeah, I feel uncertainty a lot. But a lot of people just accept uncertainty as part of life. Like we get in the car every day and there’s a high level of uncertainty there. That’s the easiest way you can die, is in a car, but we just accept that and drive all the time. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Jill: Not to create some fear for you there.

Sara: No, but it’s really good, a good conversation that we need to have. So thank you. Okay, tell us how people can work with you. Tell us how people can talk to you a little bit more. If they want to be in your world, how do they find you? 

Jill: Yeah, my website is jillfreestone.com, easy to find. And my Instagram Jill Freestone Coaching. And I’ve got a lot of guest podcasts, you can find that on there. And just hopefully the education and awareness can help people stop suffering so much. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, really good. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I really appreciate it. 

Jill: You are so welcome. I love the work you’re doing. I’m so grateful, so many people are just benefiting so much.

Sara: Yeah. Thank you. Okay, you guys, have a great week. We’ll talk to you next week. Bye-bye. 

I want to invite you to come and listen to my free class, How To Overcome Pornography For Good Without Using Willpower. We talk about how to stop giving in to urges without pure willpower or relying on phone filters so that you can actually stop wanting pornography. 

We talk about how to stop giving up after a few weeks or months. And spoiler alert, the answer isn’t have more willpower. And then lastly, we talk about how to make a life without porn easily sustainable and permanent. 

If you’re trying to quit porn, this class is a game changer. So you can go and sign up at Sarabrewer.com/masterclass, and it is totally free.