Episode 166: Interpreting the Scripture: Whosoever Lusteth Commiteth Adultery with Dan Purcell

You are listening to the Overcome Pornography for Good podcast episode 166, Interpreting the Scripture: Whosoever Lusteth Committeth Adultery.

Welcome to the Overcome Pornography For Good podcast where we take a research-based, trauma informed and results focused approach to quitting porn. This approach has been revolutionary and changed thousands and thousands of lives. I’m your host, Sara Brewer.

Hey you guys, welcome to today’s podcast episode. Today I have on Dan Purcell. He is a Christian marriage relationship coach and does retreats and a lot of great stuff. We just hopped on for a quick conversation about that scripture on the Sermon on the Mount. I’ll read the exact scripture here in a minute, but where Christ says basically whoever lusteth after a woman hath committed adultery in heart.

And we talk about that and how sometimes the way that we interpret that can be harmful and maybe some other ways to interpret this. At the end we talk about the translation from the Greek that changes the word lust to covet, and that that is what Greek scholars think that the real word here is, is covet. Whosoever covets after another woman hath committed adultery in his heart. And so kind of talk through the nuances of that.

This is a great episode if you are Christian or from a Christian background specifically. Dan speaks to our Christian audience really well and I really trust him. He’s a great, great coach, a great guy. He’s got some really great things to say here.

This is another topic where it’s not black and white and I am not going to give you a very clear answer on what this exactly means. But we do talk through a lot of different ways that we can interpret this, a lot of ways to think about this. We talk about spiritual development and spiritual growth and Dan just had some really great things to say about that.

So please enjoy this episode. Especially, especially if that scripture has been one that we’re trying to figure out what it means, specifically in regards to pornography and how to use that in a way that’s going to help us and not just create more shame spirals. So please enjoy this episode.

Sara: Hey, you guys, welcome to today’s podcast episode. Today we have an awesome guest with us. This is Dan. We’re going to talk about the Sermon on the Mount scripture, the scripture that I get asked questions about a lot. I thought it would be good just to have a podcast interview on it. Dan, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Dan: Sure, I’m Dan Purcell, together with my wife we are the founders of Get Your Marriage On, which we started around 2017. And essentially we help couples improve intimacy in marriage. I’m also a Christian and have been married 20 years and I have six kids.

Sara: I didn’t know you had six kids.

Dan: Yeah.

Sara: Are any of them at home still? Do you have quite a few at home still?

Dan: Yeah, my oldest is 19, he’s in college. He’s in Virginia, my oldest is. And then the other five are – My youngest is six. But interesting fact, it goes boy, girl, boy, girl, boy, girl with our six kids.

Sara: Oh, very nice.

Dan: Yeah, it’s fun.

Sara: Awesome. Cool. So, Dan, does your wife do your retreats with you as well?

Dan: Absolutely, yeah. Yep.

Sara: So they do retreats and all sorts of really great marriage stuff. He’s a really great resource and I’m excited to introduce all of you to him.

Okay, so let’s dive into talking about the scripture, Matthew 5:28. And if I just read it from the King James Version, it says, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” So this is a scripture that can be hard for people in the realm of sexuality or in the realm of quitting porn and so we just kind of want to chat through it.

Dan: Definitely. And I get that question a lot too, because I work with helping couples improve intimacy in their marriage and oftentimes there’s some concern, well, sometimes there’s some where one spouse uses pornography or has a past of pornography use. And so they ask about that scripture too.

Sara: Yeah. What are the big concerns that they will ask when it comes to this scripture?

Dan: I think sometimes they use this scripture to illustrate the gravity of the problem with pornography use, because the tendency is for some people, I think, to downplay how bad it is. They say it’s not hurting anybody. There’s nothing wrong with this. I can do this on my own. And so to combat that, another person will maybe pull out that scripture and that verse and say, you’re essentially committing adultery when you use pornography.

So I think sometimes it’s used with the intention of highlighting, no, this is really a problem and it’s a sin what you’re doing. So they’ll use language like that to convey. I think that’s the intent why this scripture comes up in that context.

Sara: With my clients, they’ll mention it within religious settings often, but it sounds like also in couple settings too, where maybe there is this discord with couples around one’s sexual activity with pornography and the other person doesn’t feel that comfortable with it. Okay, good. Good.

What are some common interpretations around this scripture? So we’re talking about it specifically with pornography, that if you’re looking after a woman, lusting with her, you’ve committed adultery in your heart. Tell me your thoughts about that interpretation.

Dan: These are just my own thoughts. I don’t think I’m a person in authority to say this is what this verse means, or this is exactly what Jesus meant.

Sara: Yeah, should we put a little caveat out here?

Dan: Yes.

Sara: And this is what I tell people all the time. I’m like, listen, you are the authority of your life. And your spirit and your soul and your body knows what you need more than I know. I will say things that will resonate with some of you and be like, oh, yes. And for other people I can say the same thing and they’ll be like, no.

So you always get to listen to yourself. Also, don’t downplay yourself either, Dan, because you’ve got a lot of wisdom here that I’m excited we’re going to share. 

Dan: Thanks. One more caveat is I think there’s a lot of couples, a lot of individuals too, that are just really suffering. They may turn to pornography, but they don’t really want to. It’s not like they – They wish that wasn’t a part of their life, but they’re hurting. Some of it has become habitual, or it’s just an easy go-to. Or they might feel justified in the moment for various reasons, and then afterwards resent or regret that they’ve turned to that.

Let’s not downplay that. I mean, I just want to say I recognize there’s a lot of people that are feeling a lot of hurt. Either they’re married to someone that’s using it or using it themselves, there’s that. It’s real to them. This pain is real.

Sara: Yeah, very real. Thank you.

Dan: And to sometimes get away from that pain, they’ll probably downplay the significance of the problem. And I don’t think that’s a healthy approach either.

When I think of this scripture from Jesus, I try to keep it in context of the time at which it’s given. Jesus was living at a time where the religious climate at the time was about people looking for loopholes in the letter of the law. So, technically, if they say, we joke about this looking back, but you can only walk so many steps on a Sabbath day. Well, I’m going to walk right up to that limit and I’m okay. But one step over, then I’ve broken the law.

Or you can tie a knot with one hand on the Sabbath day, and that’s okay, but two-handed knots are not okay. So, I will learn how to tie a knot with one hand because that is okay. So, they’re very much very strict on keeping a letter of the law in the climate of the time. We know this from other verses in the New Testament.

For example, they come to Jesus talking about divorce with the law of Moses. And it’s like, isn’t divorce permitted? And Jesus says, it is in your law because of the hardness of the hearts of the people, Moses permitted it. But then he goes on to explain the higher law, the other reasons why you shouldn’t just consider divorce, because it was so easy to divorce someone back then because it was in the law. Yeah, you can easily divorce if you wanted to.

So, in that climate of people looking for loopholes in the letter of the law, Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount is teaching the higher law. So, the whole sermon follows this pattern of, you’ve heard it’s been said this or it’s been written this, but here’s the higher law. We want to live at a –

Jesus is trying to teach us that you’re not saved just by checking boxes or keeping or following rules. That’s not sufficient to change you, to convert you. It’s a lot deeper than that. There’s a higher law. There’s more of a spirit to follow in the law. And I think that’s generally the context when you look at these verses.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. What comes up too, and I hope this isn’t too off topic, but there is also a climate of really pharisaical, strong, follow the letter of the law, where we have the law to keep the Sabbath day holy. And this is probably exactly what you’re saying, we have this law to keep the Sabbath day holy, and we’re making that mean don’t take X amount of steps. And we’re making that mean all these other things that are maybe more of a fence around the law to keep us from getting close to the law.

Dan: Right, do’s and don’ts. Right, exactly.

Sara: Yeah, do’s and don’ts. And so what he’s teaching here, it’s been a while since I’ve read Sermon on the Mount. I should go and reread the whole thing. But what he’s teaching here is, again, more of the spirit of the law here and like let’s focus on our hearts.

Dan: Yes. Yes, what’s the intent behind it? Like I can look upon a woman and lust after her and fantasize of partner replacement fantasies or whatever else, but technically I’m not committing adultery, so I’m off the hook. I think he’s fighting against that line of thinking.

Sara: He does it in really extreme ways. That’s something that’s important to see here too. It’s like when he says if you’re angry with your brother, it’s the same as – What does he say?

Dan: Murdering, committing murder in your heart. Yeah, that’s a few verses earlier.

Sara: Yeah, a few verses. It’s the same as committing murder. So, he’s saying it in very intense and very radical ways to kind of jar people. And so we have to be careful not to take – Here’s my thoughts, but tell me your thoughts. I’m like, okay, but we don’t take that anger scripture as literally, as a lot of people do this one of if you lust after a woman, you’ve committed adultery in your heart. So, we don’t say, if you’re angry with your brother, you’ve committed murder.

Dan: Yeah, that’s true. I can see that in our culture, in our climate. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah, it feels really, in my opinion, I think that’s probably a result of a lot of purity culture and a lot of fear around having maybe natural normal just like, oh, I have this attraction to this person or, oh, I have this desire to view pornography. Because I have this desire to view pornography, it’s the same as me committing adultery.

Dan: Right.

Sara: That’s where we’ve got to be careful because that just creates shame spirals. It’s so against just our natural sexual bodies. And when we view it that intensely, it can create a lot of problems and create more out of control behavior instead of being able to mindfully notice it and then choose what we want to do with that. Little tangent. Anyways, tell me your thoughts on that.

Dan: I like that. Kind of related to that, though, have you watched the TV series, The Chosen?

Sara: Yeah.

Dan: I love The Chosen. And there’s, I forget which episode it is, but Jesus is teaching this very scripture, he that looks upon a woman to lust after her, it’s like committing adultery in your heart. And one of the characters, I don’t remember who it was, maybe it was Simon. He’s like, we’re all in trouble. And it’s humorous, right? But it’s so true. All of us fall short of – Who of us says, oh, I’ve never been angry with someone?

We all fall short, but that’s the whole point of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Don’t we all need a Savior? None of us are going to make it out of this world alive, we need a Savior. That’s the whole point of the gospel, I think. So, we tend to forget that we’re all human, and we all fall short. We’re all not going to keep the spirit of the law or even the letter of the law perfectly all the time.

But that’s not the point. I think what Jesus is teaching us is, or inviting us to do, I should say, is can we follow him? Can we make even a covenant relationship with him? He talks about, take my yoke upon you, let me share my burdens with you because my burden is light. He’s inviting us to partner with him and to go through life with him, which involves us living a little more nobly, a little more kindly, a little more refined to become a little more Christ-like in that process.

So, I think the spirit of the law is harder to live than the letter of the law. It’s a lot more, more is required of us to really examine our heart and our interactions with other people in that way, than just on whether we check the box or follow a certain rule.

I think we need to start somewhere. Rules are a great place to start. Like your daughter walked in your room, right? She’s at the age where with her development, it’s all about rules. We don’t cross the street. We go to bed at this time. This is the stage of development where we need rules.

And as you start to grow and progress spiritually, it’s not that rules no longer become important, but it’s more than that. It’s more like, what’s the purpose behind the rule and can I live by that principle?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good and thank you for bringing that up. And I’m actually going to do a whole episode on, you know, spiritual maturity is a term. And I don’t love that term because it sounds a little condescending, right?

Dan: Yeah, yeah.

Sara: But yeah, this idea and people will get frustrated with me. They bring me this scripture and they’re like, tell me what this means, because there’s so much. And I won’t. I won’t. And there’s frustration there. And so really what I’m trying to get people to do is to look at what are the results that we’re getting from how we’re interpreting this? And do we like these results or not?

So if we go there, some results of interpreting this scripture in a really literal way is going to be a lot of sexual shame, shame spirals, falling into that, beating yourself up, which really keeps us from God, truly. It’s not helping us be better, right?

Sometimes people with shame messages are like, oh, it’s to help you be closer to God because we want to always be working to be better. And yes, there’s space for that. There’s guilt versus shame, all that. But if we take it too far, it really turns into rough shame spirals. And so that could be a result of interpreting it maybe a little bit too literally, but how do we not? Because it also sounds like Jesus is being really clear here.

Dan: Well, maybe Jesus is clear and we’re just all sinners and all falling short.

Sara: Yeah.

Dan: Here’s another illustration that I absolutely love. In John, there’s a story of the woman taken in adultery, right? It’s a trick. It’s a setup for Jesus, really. And they say, Master, in the law of Moses, it says we should stone people that commit adultery. By the way, even though that was written in the law of Moses, they actually didn’t all the time follow through with that rule so literally in their day and age, in Jesus’ time. It was really a setup.

But Jesus could see right through it. And of course, he pretends like he’s not listening. He writes in the sand. We don’t know what he wrote, but one by one the men – He stands up and says, okay, he who is without sin first cast a stone at her. And then one by one, the accusers leave, right?

So the woman is left alone with Jesus, and Jesus says, where are your accusers? It’s like, they’re not here. He said, neither do I condemn you. Go your way and sin no more. And she went away rejoicing.

I think, yes, are there people around us that are sinners? Yes, are we not all sinners? But can we model what Jesus did in that point of not being so hasty to condemn and judge, but to give people space and opportunity?

Can we lift each other up in this? Can we help others in their circumstances to live a little better, rather than put people down because of what they’ve done? We don’t want to set up hierarchies where we look down on other people because they are sinners and we’re righteous, because I don’t think that’s the way Jesus modeled it.

We are all sinners. We’re all in desperate need of salvation and help. We all need and depend on God’s grace. Even every breath we take is on loan from God. No matter how much good we do in this life, it’ll never be sufficient to pay back God for everything he’s done for us. We all depend on him.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, so those are really beautiful interpretations here. And the context can help us really get to that grace aspect more.

Tell me your thoughts on this because one thing I get concerned about is individuals then starting with this we’re all sinners idea. Then we start to see this part of us that has these sexual thoughts, urges, compulsions that are really natural, we see that as a sin. And it’s this physiology versus morality principle where we have normal, natural physiological responses.

And physiology, those normal, natural body things, so hunger, tiredness, sexuality, sexual urges, just the initial one, we have that and then we have morality. Morality is what we choose with those normal natural body responses. And so, stealing food, acting out of your values sexually, whatever that is.

But if we confuse that physiology versus morality, it gets really sticky. It creates a lot of problems. And so, I can see just some issues with interpreting the scripture getting in that way of that physiology versus morality that’s going to create a really healthy life. What are your thoughts on that?

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. In my past, I’ve really fallen to that line of thinking that having a sexual thought equaled a sinful thought. Like it was wrong to have sexual thoughts. So, I worked really hard to keep my thoughts clean, AKA don’t think anything sexual or whatever. If someone gave a joke –

And I remember, I’m engaged to my wife. We’re so excited to be married. And I’m just having lots of sexual thoughts. I’m daydreaming about what our honeymoon is going to be like and whatever and everything. And my roommates teased me about everything too, right? I couldn’t get away from it. I was so horny. And I remember feeling so guilty about it too.

I went to my church leaders, my bishop at the time, and I said, I’m really struggling with sexual thoughts. And he’s like, what do you mean? And then I kind of explained a little bit. It’s like, well, you’re supposed to be having sexual thoughts. There’s nothing wrong with that. You’ve got to understand, my bishop at that time, he was an accountant and had the stereotypical personality of an accountant, like really not a funny guy, I guess you’d say.

Sara: Pretty ethical.

Dan: Yeah, exactly. They say accountants don’t have a personality, right? That was him. And then he was going on to telling me about how he fantasizes about his wife all the time and things he wants to do with his wife. And I was kind of shocked that a grown man was telling me about these things, especially someone who I didn’t think had much of a creative personality.

And I’m grateful for that gift of that hour with him, because he just normalized everything for me. And from that moment on, I’m like, wait a minute, maybe having a sexual thought or whatever isn’t a sin. In fact, now that I’ve grown and matured a little more since then, I don’t think the way I used to anymore.

In fact, it’s a beautiful thing that we think sexual thoughts. And especially in the right context, it’s going to draw me closer to my ultimate goal of having an intimate relationship with my wife.

I think of it like a kite. We want a kite that’s soaring high in the sky. We’re going to have a long string here. And we want to cultivate a healthy sexuality, which includes a lot of sexual thoughts, right? This might include fantasies. This might include favorite experiences you’ve had.

These are all things that give you lift. They breathe life into your relationship. It makes marriage not mundane. It makes it extraordinary. But these wonderful things, sex is such a beautiful, wonderful place to play. But like any good kite, you need to hold onto this string.

You need a moral anchor. Because if you say morality doesn’t matter, anything goes, you’re cutting the string. And the kite, you might think, will fly higher because it’s not tethered, but it usually crashes afterwards. But you also don’t want a tiny, short string either, so that the kite doesn’t get off the ground and doesn’t really experience what it’s like to really soar. So it is a balance.

I do believe we need moral anchors. But we also need a lot of freedom too. Being too moralistic or legalistic squashes your eroticism. It squashes your sex drive. It’ll ruin your desire. And also having too much desire without boundaries, being unboundaried, you can’t have a strong relationship with someone if you’re boundary-less. So we do need both.

Sara: Yeah, really good. And it’s practice. And sometimes it takes us a while to figure out what that looks like, what the right length of string is for us. But if we’re so afraid of even trying to figure that out, we’re not going to be able to figure it out.

Dan: Mm-hmm. There are a lot of people I talk to that are afraid to figure out sex because they’re so afraid that it might turn into a monster that they can’t control. And I totally understand that fear. I can relate with that fear because that’s where I used to be years ago.

But I think what people need to realize is you are still the decider of your life. You’re the captain of your ship. You’re the author of your story. And you’re in charge. And there’s nothing wrong with experimenting to learn for yourself if something’s right or not. We apply that same principle to every other aspect of our life.

We can apply it when it comes to food. How do I know if I like sushi or not? Well, you try it. Is it good? You like it or you don’t, right? Same with, in a way there’s a lot of things we can test and try out, even sexually. I don’t mean something immoral here, or outside of your values here per se.

I’m talking about how we’re so afraid to be sexual because we think it means we’re breaking some big commandment. And it’s too rule-based thinking, rather than really settling into the spirit of why we have sexual urges and how they’re there to bless us and to help us with our ultimate goals.

Sara: Yeah, really good. Thank you. Let’s come back to this scripture, the Sermon on the Mount scripture, whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. How can we interpret this scripture in a way that continues to help us quit porn, for people who want to quit porn, without leading us into shame spirals of, oh my gosh, I’ve basically committed adultery here?

And I say that with nuance because – And I did a whole episode on this with Andrea on like, is porn infidelity?

Dan: Yes, I’m familiar with that episode you did.

Sara: Yeah, we don’t give you a black and white answer. So what can we do to interpret the scripture in a way that doesn’t lead us to more shame spirals that make it more difficult to start acting in our value system?

Dan: If your view of God is that he’s a very punishing God, you’re going to have a hard time not getting away from that legalistic thinking. But if your view of God as God is a God that will forgive 7X70 and beyond, or a God who says, I will love you with all of my heart, mind, and strength, a God that is just the mere act of creation and you being created is grace personified. He’s got you.

Sara: Yeah. I love that Richard Rohr quote. Are you familiar with Richard Rohr?

Dan: Yes. I’ve read his book, Falling Up.

Sara: He says, those who really know God, the spirituals, the monks, the whatever, know that God is a lover, not a dictator.

Dan: Yes, absolutely.

Sara: Yeah. And this is what I would probably share with my audience here, too, is that I love looking at the fruits. So what are the fruits that we’re getting? What are the fruits that we’re receiving?

Dan: See, another Sermon on the Mount verse right there, “You’ll know a tree by its fruits.”

Sara: Yeah, there we go. Yeah, right there. So the fruits, what are the fruits of how we’re interpreting this scripture? Are the fruits helping us or are they hurting us? If they’re hurting us, we can know that it’s not from God and there might be some part of the interpretation or how we’re thinking about it that we’re missing.

Dan: Yeah. Well, if I was in a church lesson and the spirit of the lesson was how using pornography is the equivalent of committing adultery, and statistically speaking 60% of the men in that church lesson are going to be “adulterers.”

Sara: Oh, I guarantee it’s more.

Dan: Whatever, right?

Sara: 60% is like the people who actually say that they are.

Dan: Okay, there you go. Self-reported only, right? And then it’s very much about condemnation. I think we’ll be less motivated to go back to church next week.

Sara: Yeah, and less motivated to connect to God.

Dan: And I think we’ll think, how can I belong to a church, how can I go to a church that is only for people that have it figured out? I don’t have it figured out, so I’m not welcome here.

Sara: Yeah.

Dan: And we forget the whole reason why we have a church in the first place. It’s not for those that have it figured out. That’s not church. It’s for humans.

Second of all, I think looking at the fruits, understanding that you can judge for yourself. Let’s say I used pornography because I was feeling lonely or bored. That’s a common reason why someone turns to it, right? Actually, I’m using it to solve a problem and it feels so good in the moment.

Sara: A quick escape.

Dan: It’s like, I fixed lonely and bored, right? But then afterwards, I could imagine myself feeling empty, maybe a little shame, right? Like, I don’t know if that was the best use of my time. I don’t feel better off. In the moment I did.

I think of it like when I’m really hungry and I go for a Snickers bar instead of a proper meal. In the moment, that Snickers tastes so good. But then five minutes later, I have a horrible headache from the sugar rush because my blood sugar spikes way up and then I just crash. I would have been much better off with a proper meal. That’s the fruit.

Sara: Yes.

Dan: That’s the fruit of it. So, do I want to continue a lifestyle where that is the outcome that I’m getting every time I’m bored or lonely? I don’t think that’s going to serve me well.

Now, this is a lot easier said than done, and that’s why you have such a wonderful program, Sara. Some habits and patterns take time. They take stubbornness and they take a lot of discipline, to a degree. I agree 100% when you say it’s not about white knuckling. It’s not about all that, but it’s understanding that I’m going to need to give myself some grace here and live my life more by principles than by rules.

The ultimate principle, if I was in that position, would be I want better nutrition. So when I’m bored or lonely, I’m going to turn, I’m going to break my old pattern of this and I’m going to choose a different pattern this time. And I’m going to try it and see if I like that fruit any better.

Sara: Yeah. Buffering, escaping emotion with porn or food or whatever that is, it typically has a net negative effect. It’s going to have a less delicious fruit in the end, even if the first hit is pretty nice.

And I want to go back to what you said, living by principles instead of rules. So, really, that’s what, in this interpretation of Sermon on the Mount, that’s what Christ is trying to teach here. But it’s almost like then our natural instinct is to turn this into a rule. So, if I lust after someone, the rule is that I’ve committed adultery in my heart. When, interesting enough, it seems like that’s not what he’s trying to teach us.

And I think the principle here, too, is let’s reserve our sexual energy for your partner as much as possible.

Dan: Right.

Sara: And it makes sense relationally, too. If you’re with someone and you want to be with them, you want to create a good relationship, you want to reserve most of your sexual energy for that partner, if that’s what you guys have decided on, is that you want to be in a monogamous relationship together.

Dan: Right. Absolutely.

Sara: So that could be just what he’s sharing here. Let’s try to keep our sexual energy for our person.

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

Sara: Instead of letting it go everywhere else. But it doesn’t have to be this battle between, okay, now anytime you have a thought. You’re in the gym, you see someone, you have a thought, oh, they’re attractive. That does not mean the same as committing adultery.

Dan: No.

Sara: With a lot of my clients it’s really – And there’s so much love and compassion here because culturally and in our society, in our really purity-focused society, that’s a message you get drilled into you, to avoid anything that brings you a sexual thought.

Dan: Right. Right.

Sara: And so it’s really easy to take that into adulthood, to read this scripture, to hear these interpretations and for it to become really harmful.

Dan: Yes. Yeah, agreed. Can I share a story about rules over principles?

Sara: Please.

Dan: When I was 19, I served a two-year mission for my church, and it was probably one of the best experiences of my life to that point. It was a fantastic experience. And we had a leader over our mission, we call him a mission president. And he worked for Franklin Covey before becoming a mission president. So he’s a very knowledgeable educator, teacher.

And at a lot of our zone conferences, this is a conference where we would talk and basically receive training, he’d give us really in-depth training that he would give like Fortune 500 CEOs. It was fantastic in-depth training.

Sara: Cool.

Dan: And before he became the president, so a president rotates every few years. The president before him had created a rulebook for the mission, basically teaching that obedience to rules is what brings blessings from God. Therefore, I’m going to give you lots of rules. The better you are at keeping these rules will equal more blessings from God as a missionary. That’s how the previous mission president taught.

Sara: And that’s like a quote. Who is that? Is that from Pack or someone? The exact obedience brings miracles or brings blessings. I got that a lot on my mission too. Anyway, go on.

Dan: Right. So probably, but what are you obedient to? That’s not defined. This mission president defined it as rules, obedience to rules. So he created these rules. One was, you’re not allowed to turn on the heater unless it’s snowing outside. And I lived in a very cold area, my mission was in a very cold area.

Sara: Where were you?

Dan: I was in northern Japan.

Sara: Okay, yeah.

Dan: In Hokkaido, Japan. So it could be freezing cold outside and our teeth chattering, but you weren’t allowed to turn on the heater unless it was snowing. This is an example. We laugh about it now, but the mission president at the time probably had a good reason for creating these rules, I don’t know.

Anyway, the very second zone conference that the new mission leader, my mission leader, came into the mission, he invited all the missionaries to bring the rule books. These are like binders that were in every apartment, to bring them to the zone conference. He had his assistants walk up and down the aisles with trash bags and had everyone throw away the rule book in the trash bags.

Sara: Oh, that would have been so good for me.

Dan: It was so fun, right? They made a party out of throwing away the rules. But he’s like, let’s not get carried away here. I’m not saying rules aren’t important, but I don’t want you missionaries living by rules. I want you living by principles. So why do we have a rule of – And he’d make up a rule.

For example, one rule was to go to bed at 10:30, and wake up at 6:30. Why do we have that rule? Think about it. It’s because missionary work is very labor intensive. It’s very exhausting work. You need good sleep in order to sustain yourself so that you can be an effective missionary. That’s the principle I want you to live by, get enough rest. If you live by the principle, then the rule takes care of itself.

And then he gave us another example. So what’s the principle behind that? Live that principle, and then the rule will take care of itself.

Sara: Yeah, so, so good. Another principle of spiritual maturity. I need to find another – If you think of something else for me to call that other than spiritual maturity, let me know.

Dan: I think it is spiritual maturity, because we do start with rules. Everyone does. Like your daughter, right? The rules are black and white, but as you do mature – I’d call it development. Spiritual development.

Sara: Development is maybe better because maturity sounds like condescension.

Dan: Condescension, yeah. It’s a development.

Sara: Especially, because this is another tangent, I’ll just say it really quick. But people’s scrupulosity tendencies, or just a lot of conditioning, depending on the family you grew up in or the church community you grew up in. It’s not your fault if you have a difficult time with this. It’s really conditioned into you, depending on your background.

Anyway, that’s why I say that. Just like a little caveat, because I know my audience is very prone to beating themselves up. So if it’s hard for you to get there, just a lot of love and understanding.

Sorry, go ahead. I keep interrupting you.

Dan: I love this, Sara. Beating yourself up is the last thing that will help motivate you to change something.

Sara: Yeah.

Dan: I think actually it might work in the short term, but it’s not going to work long term.

Sara: Yeah.

Dan: And I love to run. I love training for marathons and things like that. I love getting out there and pounding pavement with my feet. But if I don’t hit a certain time record or I’m not hitting a certain goal, it consumes me. And in the short term I might think I’m motivating myself to try harder next time, but I set myself up to fail because I’ve created a pass-fail situation in my life.

I’ve set a bar that I have to attain in order for me to feel worthy about myself. And then you lose motivation because you’re not going to make it because you’ve set yourself up for failure. We do that to ourselves so many times when we don’t achieve or when we’re not doing that.

This isn’t to excuse that, okay, anything goes. That’s not what we’re talking about, but it’s our response to what happens when things don’t go as we want, because we are all human. Self-compassion is, I think, so vital in this case is what we’re learning in these scriptures that we’re talking about.

Sara: Yeah. And again, back to the fruits, you can use the teachings of Jesus to get that grace and to get that self-compassion. Or you can use the teachings of Jesus to get the fruits of more coming down with the hammer, come on, maybe more shame-y messages.

Let’s just make sure however we’re interpreting it is helping us. I know that’s not a black and white answer that a lot of you want, but it’s the best one and it’s so much more helpful.

One other thing too, and you mentioned this when we were first talking, but a lot of biblical scholars will interpret that word, lust, as covet.

Dan: Yes. Yeah, which makes more sense to me. If I’m married to my wife, but I covet my neighbor’s wife –

Sara: That other lady at church.

Dan: Exactly, or whatever, right? A, I think sexual desire is always with a person. We got to remember that they are a person too, they’re not an object. So, A, we tend to covet things. But coveting, I think it’s the coveting of it is where we lose fidelity to our existing spouse, because we’re no longer cherishing them, appreciating them. I think that’s where the danger lies in that too.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, right? If you’re using a lot of your – That really changes the tone of the scripture, doesn’t it? Thinking of it as coveting.

Dan: It does.

Sara: Then it becomes less of like a physiology versus morality, like let’s be careful, and more of like, yeah, when you’re in a relationship, a monogamous relationship with someone, you want your energy, your love, your adoration, your sexuality to that person.

Dan: I hope my wife knows that I lust after her. It’s embodied desire. I desire her and I hope she lusts after me too. In that context, I think lust is a beautiful and wonderful thing. In fact, it’s absolutely critical if you want to be married long-term.

Sara: Yeah. And so we’re all going to, tell me if you agree with this, we’re all going to have those thoughts that come, oh, that person is attractive. If you’re struggling with porn and you’ve got those high dopamine levels and you’re trying to bring down that over-desire, it’s going to maybe happen a lot where you’re desiring pornography and we’re working through that.

But we can have those physiological symptoms. You’re always attracted to other people other than your spouse, but you can still choose if you’re desiring and choosing your spouse.

Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like with any appetite, I think. Food’s an easy thing to relate it to. But yeah, I do think, like I’m human and I notice an attractive woman. And thank goodness it just means I’m normal, right?

Sara: Yeah.

Dan: And that’s okay to be, that’s okay to have, but what do I do with that? I think that’s what matters. Do I entertain it? Do I pursue it? Do I seek after it?

Sara: Do I covet it and think about it all the time?

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

Sara: And wish that was my spouse instead?

Dan: And I don’t think that will yield the fruit I want in my life.

Sara: Right.

Dan: So in the end I think it’s about self-authoring. I am the author of my life. I decide what to do. I’m in charge of me.

Sara: Mm-hmm.

Dan: I think there are things that happen to us and there’s things that we do. Like to act and to be acted upon. You’re at the gym and you see an attractive woman, like you said that analogy earlier. That’s an example of something being acted upon. It’s happening to you. But what do you do in that situation? How do you respond? How do you take charge? How do you act? In that lies our power. That’s where agency is.

Sara: Yeah. Really good, thank you. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you want to share with my listeners who are trying to quit porn? And then I’ll ask you for the resources that you have for them.

Dan: I think there’s a lot more nuance in a marriage relationship because I know of situations, too, where you wish the sex was subpar in your relationship. Personally, pornography use isn’t my story. I haven’t really been in that area before where it was compulsive or habitual like some of your listeners here are.

However, I’m not naive. I understand why it’s appealing. That being said, once I’ve really worked on improving the sexual relationship, which includes the intimate relationship with my wife, the appeal or that desire to turn to something like pornography is diminished significantly because what I have is so authentic and everything else feels too counterfeit.

So some advice is to really work on the intimate relationship, if you’re married, with your spouse and to take that seriously and work on that. I have found, personally, having that bond that’s real, having that transcendent experience with my wife and having a lot of fun in the bedroom, it’s a place where we play. It’s a very sacred place for us. It’s also a very spicy place for us to play and a very creative outlet for both of us.

Having that, and it’s kind of our secret. It’s kind of having something for us to enjoy. Having that, it just makes everything else pale in comparison to what it can be and what it can have. So cultivate that. Do the work needed in your relationship to strengthen it if you can.

Sara: Yeah, and Dan’s really, really good at that, especially with, well, all couples. But I think, are most of your clients Christian?

Dan: Yeah, mostly Christians. That’s who I speak to.

Sara: Yeah, specifically within that demographic, he’s so good at it. And I would recommend anyone to him who wants to really work on that specific. That’s your specialty.

Dan: That’s my specialty, yeah.

Sara: Yeah, we should have you back to talk more about that.

Dan: Great. Yep.

Sara: Just ranting about a verse together. So tell them, if they are interested in working through that with someone, with you, what resources do you have available?

Dan: The best is my website, getyourmarriageon.com. From there, you’ll find links to everything. My most popular thing I offer now is a free app called Intimately Us. It’s on the app store and it’s full of tons of fun and creative ideas to make things fun and spicy in your bedroom.

Sara: I will say too, it’s fun to get to the point where you can stop putting so much energy towards just not looking at porn. And instead, like that energy to create something really fun.

Dan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can really relax into your own sexuality and just enjoy it. That’s what it’s about. So that’s the best resource, I think.

Sara: Cool. The app, the website, you’ve got a podcast.

Dan: I have a podcast, Get Your Marriage On. Sara, you’ve been a guest on my podcast before.

Sara: Yeah, that’s right.

Dan: And I have an Instagram, Get Your Marriage On. I have a YouTube channel.

Sara: You’re everywhere.

Dan: Yep, I’m there. Yep.

Sara: Okay. All right, thank you so much. I so, so appreciate having you on today.

Dan: Thanks. 

I want to invite you to come and listen to my free class, How To Overcome Pornography For Good Without Using Willpower. We talk about how to stop giving in to urges without pure willpower or relying on phone filters so that you can actually stop wanting pornography.

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