Episode 124: Loneliness and Dating with Tammy Hill

Uncategorized May 29, 2023

Searching for the keys to navigating loneliness and cultivating healthy relationships while dealing with a pornography habit? Seeking guidance on how to disclose this part of your life to your partner?

In a society hyper-focused on flaws and imperfections, it's easy to feel disconnected and alone. These feelings often amplify in the context of dating and relationships, especially when dealing with issues like pornography use.

This episode brings you a deep-dive into this often-taboo subject, featuring insights from our esteemed guest, Tammy Hill. Tammy is a professor at BYU, an accomplished author, a skilled relationship and sex coach, and a seasoned marriage and family therapist. She's well-versed in the intricacies of managing a fulfilling love life while dealing with personal issues, and she's here to share her invaluable expertise.

Tune into our enlightening discussion as Tammy offers practical advice on overcoming loneliness and building the relationship of your dreams. She'll shed light on the powerful impacts of nurturing an abundance mindset and taking care of our minds and bodies. Not only this, but she'll guide us on how to thrive in singleness and shed light on the tricky question - when is the right time to disclose your porn habit in a relationship?

 

If you’re ready to do this work and start practicing unconditional commitment toward quitting your porn habit, sign up to work with me!

 

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

 

  • Tammy’s insights on feeling lonely and like you’ll never have the relationship you want.
  • What can happen when you date from loneliness.
  • Why suffering and grieving are important, and how to contain them in a healthy way.
  • How to thrive when you’re single.
  • The power of being intentional about how you take care of your mind and body.
  • How to build the skill of being happy.
  • Tammy’s advice on dating and disclosing your pornography habit.

 


Featured on the Show:

 

Full Episode Transcript:

You are listening to the Overcome Pornography for Good podcast episode 124, Loneliness and Dating with Tammy Hill. 

Welcome to the Overcome Pornography For Good podcast where we take a research-based, trauma informed and results focused approach to quitting porn. This approach has been revolutionary and changed thousands and thousands of lives. I’m your host, Sara Brewer.

Hey, you guys, welcome to today's podcast episode, I’m so freaking excited to share this episode with Tammy Hill, who is an amazing professor and author and coach and therapist. And she is just such a cool lady. We are talking about loneliness and we are also talking about dating.

I get tons of questions about dating. Like if I'm dating how do I talk to them about this? How do I know if I'm good enough to start dating someone, if it's the right time for me to start dating someone, right, in regards to porn and porn habits. And so we dive into this topic and it's so, so good.

Please enjoy this episode with Tammy Hill. Please go and purchase her new book on sex and sexuality between couples. It's such a good book I've shared about it on my Instagram before because I just really love it. Go and check out her Instagram and she is just the best. So please enjoy this podcast episode with Tammy Hill.

Sara: Hey, you guys, welcome to today's episode. I'm so excited to introduce you to Tammy Hill. We've become little buddies through Instagram and she’s just such a cool lady. She is a marriage and family therapist. She is also a professor at BYU. Do you still do classes at BYU every semester?

Tammy: And this is my last semester, so two more weeks.

Sara: Oh wow. Wow. And people just adore her class. I remember once I shared something, like you had shared something of mine and I shared it and I had a bunch of friends reach out and be like, “Tammy Hill, I love her. What? You have made it because Tammy Hill has posted about you.” That’s what they said to me.

Tammy: That makes me feel really good. I have been there 10 years and I've taught probably about 15,000 students and I adore them. I just love them. And so I love them as well.

Sara: They can feel it, obviously. You do a lot of really good work there. And then Tammy also she is an author and has a few books out that I'll have you talk about here in just a minute. Well, I don't know, you have your children's book and then Replenish.

Tammy: I have one more children's book I'm working on called your body and the plan of happiness.

Sara: Oh, sweet. Very sweet. You want to tell us a little bit about Replenish?

Tammy: Yes, I'm so excited for Replenish. This is a book that took me about seven years to write. I tell everyone, other than raising my children I think it's my life's work because in it I've compiled all of my schooling as a, particularly with the sex therapy, being a certified sex therapist and as well as research and more of an LDS gospel perspective. But it also is unique and that each chapter will have ways that you can process individually how you feel about what you just read.

And then as a couple, I really encourage couples to sit down and talk to each other about how they feel about what they just read and to create from that their own playbook or their own structure for what's going to be good for them and their marriage sexually. And then I have all kinds of fun experiential, sexual experiential things that couples can try together to kind of make it –

I think we get in ruts a lot of times and don't do new things as often as I would like people to. I like being creative. And so anyway, it has got spiritual, it's got a lot of research, social science. It's got like the therapeutic piece of processing alone, then processing together. And then it's got actual activities that you can do to try things out together and learn from.

Sara: Yeah, cool. And I don't know if I said that, that you're like a sex therapist and a sex coach, and that your classes at BYU are – Actually, what is your class at BYU? I don't even know.

Tammy: So right now I'm teaching marriage preparation and marriage enhancement. And I helped develop the first course of healthy sexuality in marriage that was taught at BYU in 2014.

Sara: Nice, yeah.

Tammy: I don't resent this semester.

Sara: Yeah, so a lot of healthy sexuality, a lot of really great sex stuff. And we were going to talk about sex, but we decided to talk about something a little bit different today. Anyways, we'll get into that in just a moment. But I do just want to say with your book Replenish, I think it is brilliant. And I love the way that it's laid out.

Tammy: Thank you. You’ve been so nice in what you've posted and shared about it, it means a lot to me. Thank you.

Sara: Yeah, well you're welcome. And I did, because I was really excited about it. And so I just did like one post about it, but people got really excited about it when I shared it because it's just a great book and people love to, you know, they want to know the specifics on how to create – We're done with the generals around sex. It makes it hard when we speak in – Anyways, the specifics in the book are really, really good. So I think everyone should go grab a copy.

Tammy: They can get it on Amazon, that’s the fastest way.

Sara: There you go, awesome. 

So, today what we want to talk about, let me pull up my email that I sent to you. I've gotten a few tough questions lately around loneliness and around dating. One that we just got recently, they said something like, “I don't think I'll ever have the relationship that I want. I struggle with a disability and I think it's going to keep me from ever having a deep relationship with someone. I've tried for a long time.” He’s just feeling really, really helpless. He said, “I'm very lonely. What can I do?”

So I would love to chat about this with you and hear what you would say to someone in this situation.

Tammy: Well, I had a couple of students at BYU that I'd had a conversation similar to this with. And I think, first of all, empathize and say, that must be so hard. I know that being alone is hard. My first husband passed away 22 years ago and I was a single mom for five years.

And so I understand a little bit about what it's like to be alone and wanting to have someone love you, wanting to have someone touch you, wanting to be cherished and chosen and adored. All those feelings that are, I believe, part of our divine makeup, is that we want to belong to someone. And when you're not feeling like you belong to someone, it can be very difficult.

So I think I would first, if this person asked me, I’d empathize, I’d listen and let him know that it's hard. And I also would say that I really believe you have to thrive on your own before you're going to be able to thrive in a relationship. And so you can feel lonely and you can get stuck in a rut with feeling lonely and discouraged. And no one's going to get after you for that.

But I want you to know that the longer you stay there, the harder, I think, it can be to climb back out. But you need to be able to climb out and be able to thrive before you can really thrive in a relationship.

It’s like I always tell people you're not supposed to go to the grocery store when you're hungry because you're going to just buy all kinds of stuff that maybe isn’t so healthy. And I believe when you're lonely and you start dating, you can really get into some unhealthy relationships because you're longing. You're longing so much to be in one, that you don't pay attention to things that you really do need to be paying attention to.

So I say start doing things that will help you thrive as an individual. What would you say, Sara?

Sara: Well that's so good and I love the grocery store example. That's such a great example. We went to Costco a few weeks ago and my husband was starving. So he's grabbing all of the pre-made food, we had like 10 dinners in our cart. I’m like, I think this is going to go bad. We just have a small family, we don't need that much food from Costco. And then we went the next week and he's like, “Wow, it's really different shopping when you're not hungry.”

Tammy: Yeah, interesting.

Sara: Yeah, so good. I love that. And I agree with the empathizing part. And I think one thing that I did say to this person was like, it's okay to grieve, too, and to take the time you need to to grieve what you wish it looked like right now, what's different about your life. I think part of that thriving is being able to grieve and go through those processes.

Tammy: Yeah, I think suffering is part of the plan. And I think that suffering and grieving is important, like you're saying. I also really believe you should contain it. This helped me so much when I was a widow, my therapist taught me how to contain my suffering and so I'll just briefly describe it.

Sara: Yeah.

Tammy: I picture it, you can picture it however you want, but like those little canisters at the bank that you get and you twist it open, put your stuff in and put it through the bank. So, for me, what I would do is I would schedule an amount of time every day where I would just let myself grieve and suffer.

And so for that half an hour I would mentally get out that canister and I would cry, I would feel sorry for myself, I would do all of the stuff that you do when you're grieving, which is important because you can't just stop those feelings. You can control those feelings, but you can't just turn them off in a healthy way. That's not, I don't think that's possible, really, to do that in a healthy way.

So I would just grieve, I'd feel, I'd cry, I would scream, I would swear. Sometimes I would throw things. I mean, it was just whatever I needed that day to kind of feel like I could get all of that suffering out. And I would put it in a canister after half an hour and mentally send it back to the vault and then go on with my day.

And what it helped me do is I've found myself ruminating constantly on how bad my life is now, that I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life. I had a new baby, I mean, I'm just going to be just this mother that never has anyone anymore. And I was just, that's all I would think about all the time.

And what containment helped me do is to still honor those feelings, because they're real, but to contain them so that the other 23 and a half hours of the day when I started getting into that ruminating pattern, I would make myself stop. So I'd imagine like a big red button, target button, that's exactly what I imagined. And I would hit that red button and stop, it’s time for me to suffer right now so I'm not going to go there. And I would just learn to control the way I thought. That was really powerful for me.

Sara: So good. And it's also like you're saying to that part of you that's so sad, you're not saying like, stop or be quiet. You're saying, I got you and we're going to come back tomorrow during that half hour.

Tammy: Yeah.

Sara: I got you. We're going to be sad but don't worry, I'm not going to forget about you. We're going to feel it, we're going to contain it and then move on. I love that, that's a great example.

Tammy: Yeah, that helped me a lot. I think, you know, there's basic things as far as for self-care I would encourage this person to remember things that they've enjoyed doing in their life. What are things you have enjoyed doing and are you doing them now? Can you do them now? How can we fit those things in your life schedule now?

Have you learned anything new lately? Is there anything you'd be interested in learning how to do? And then engross yourself in things that you love doing and learning something new. When I was a widow I learned how to do stained glass. And I can tell you, I would throw myself into that.

And it was like those hours that I was doing that, making stained glass windows and things, was joyful because I wasn't thinking about anything. I was creating with my hands and I was feeling really satisfied with what I was creating. And it just was something I'm doing just for me, I wasn't taking care of anyone else.

And anyway, I would encourage you to remember things you loved and do them. And then see if there's something else you'd like to learn to do and get busy kind of doing something new and learning and growing.

Sara: Yeah. Is that what's behind you, that stained glass?

Tammy: Oh, that is actually a stained glass quilt that I made a couple of years ago. I got into paper piece quilting during that time as well.

Sara: It's beautiful.

Tammy: Thank you. Thank you. I haven't done stained glass for years, but my son and I are doing a class that starts in two weeks. I can hardly wait. I’m so excited.

Sara: So cool. That's awesome. That's great advice, too. I was just playing the piano last night and I grew up playing piano and I just loved it. And I recently bought a piano for our own house.

Tammy: Cool.

Sara: And yeah, I've been playing it and every time I get into playing it I'm like, I should do lessons again. I just love this. And it gets me into flow.

Tammy: That's exactly what I was going to say, because I would get in that flow and it was wonderful. It was a wonderful reprieve.

Sara: Yeah. There's a book out there, I read it when I was at BYU for one of my classes for my major. But it's the idea that you can get into these states of – I can't remember exactly how they describe it, but it's like when you're doing something and time just kind of doesn't matter. And you're just really into it and it's challenging enough that it's keeping you really engaged. But it's not too hard where you're just hating it.

And so hiking, reading, playing piano, hobbies, all this stuff can help you get into flow. So a little rant about, off course, teaching you about flow. But really good. So anything else that you might say to someone to help them start to thrive in this stage of being single?

Tammy: I think surround yourself with people that you do love and who love you back, do as much as you can to be with those people. I think having a good support system is important. And even if it's just, you're not actually living in the same community, well, technology has made that so it's not even a problem anymore to connect with people who live in another country, I would do things to, to surround yourself with people that know you and love you.

I was thinking about it this morning, I’m looking at my notes. Oh, get into a good, healthy routine. If you're caring for your body, your spirit is also going to feel happier. And my first master's program was in medical dietetics and so I really believe that the way that we nourish and the way that we get sunshine and sleep, all of that really impacts our moods.

And so do things, get in a wholesome good, healthy routine. And be consistent about it. As you do that, especially if you haven't been in a healthy routine, changing sometimes can be really hard to do. So just change one thing about it.

For now go to bed earlier, don't go to bed with your phone, the little things. Just do little things consistently. And then add a little bit more and add a little more. I think the more wholesome your routine is in taking care of yourself, your mood is just going to be elevated for sure with that.

Sara: Awesome.

Tammy: And there's a podcast I really like called Ten Percent Happier, I don't know if you've ever listened to that, Sara. But it’s kind of more of an abundance mentality of looking for the things that are really going okay. Looking around you and observing what's going right in your life and focusing on that.

I believe that in a lot of ways, I'm going to blame it on social media, I don't know that that's the fair culprit. But what I see happening with my children, what I see happening with my students at BYU is that as you're scrolling through social media, you're looking for things actually that are out of place. You're looking for things that are not as beautiful. You're looking to find fault. And you stop when it doesn't fit.

And I think we've kind of gotten to be a culture where we're kind of looking for things that are wrong, or finding fault with one another, or looking for the imperfections in one another. And I love having an abundance mentality where you start looking for themes that are good and right and be someone that when you see someone doing something that's really great, tell them. Tell them that it's great, smile, make eye contact with people.

We need to connect a little bit more, I think, as humanity and give one another the benefit of the doubt. And also to look for all the things that are good. Even though we've had so much now here in Utah and this week has been a little discouraging. We had 20 inches at our house and another 10 inches and my shoulder hurts from all the shoveling, so it's kind of gotten me a little negative.

And yesterday my husband and I, I was kind of being really negative and we were out hiking up on a trail and there's snow and the sun was shining. And he stopped me and said, “Okay, let's do the abundant thinking you always say and tell me about.” He was tired of me, I think. He said, “Right here because this is not going to look like this in another few weeks. It's not going to look like this for a whole 'nother year.”

And so I paused and you can see the little kind of diamond glittering on the snow from the sunshine and it really is beautiful. There's a lot of beautiful things right now and that really helped me. In that split second my mood elevated because he said, “Stop, we need to kind of go back to let's look for what's going right. What is beautiful here right now?”

So I think it's not like rocket science, it’s just being kind of more intentional in the way that we take care of our mind, how we take care of our body, that we intentionally do things that we love to do and push ourselves to learn new skills. 

Sara: I love that. I'm thinking about how two October's ago I was, you know, everything on the outside of my life looked so good. I had a lot of success and I'd reach some good goals and I had my cute family. And we were spending a month in Hawaii, that's how good things were, right? And I was miserable.

Tammy: Oh now.

Sara: Yeah. And I realized, I was like, so I've spent a lot of time building success skills, like I've got some good success skills. And I don't know, I've always been kind of a type A person, weird.

Tammy: Me too.

Sara: Yeah, a lot of effort there. And my happy skills, it was like a lightbulb moment for me, success skills are not the same as happy skills. And so I can have both, it's not like the more successful you are, the more miserable you are. But if you're not building your happy skills, you're not going to be happy.

And so a lot of things helped me with that. There was some trauma I needed to heal, some stuff I needed to go through. But the biggest thing that made the difference for me and the biggest thing, and there's a lot of research around this too, like to build this happy skill it was just pleasantness in gratitude. This is what you're saying, it's not rocket science.

But intentionally, what I would do is I would just sit down and I would just think of all these beautiful moments like, oh, do you remember when Benny, like I would write, “Benny smiled at me.” And I would feel that in my body. Like my cute three year old son just gave me the biggest grin, and the sun on my cheeks, and just like feel that. And just tiny little things.

And I realized it was not being in Hawaii for a month that was making me happy. It was me intentionally thinking of just those tiny, small moments and being filled with them and practicing being filled with that. Or like hiking in the winter and looking at – The mountains are gorgeous when they're covered in snow. They’re so pretty, and just breathe and feel that for a moment. Anyways, it's made a world of difference for me.

Tammy: That's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I love that the smile that your son gave you, that you actually kind of felt that in your body. You know, the joy of observing that created a physiological or a spiritual response within your body. And I think paying attention to things like that, our bodies can feel a lot of really wonderful things if we pause for a minute and just tune into it. I love that.

Sara: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, awesome.

I want to move on to this question about dating, but did we miss anything you want to share about loneliness?

Tammy: I don't think so.

Sara: Okay. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot we could do.

Tammy: There's lonely seasons and there’s seasons that are not as lonely. And I guess the last thing maybe I would say is that it's not going to last forever. I don't believe it will last forever. Especially if you do the things that we've been talking about, it won't last forever.

Sara: Yeah, so good. Okay, so the question I got, recently I spoke at the BYU club on Tuesday. And one person said, “How do I know if I am worthy enough to start dating or to date someone? And when I do start dating, how do I talk about pornography that I'm working through?” Yeah, that's a big one, but what would you say?

Tammy: This is a question that, honestly, I think I get every time on campus from both perspectives of I am actively viewing, I'm working on making changes and being healthier, how do I disclose this to the person I'm dating? Or should I even be dating? And on the other hand, when is it the right time for me to ask this person I'm dating about their pornography use? So I guess I'll try to answer that a little bit from both perspectives for a second.

Sara: Yeah.

Tammy: I don't think we talk about porn, just like I think we should talk about things such as what's my relationship with pornography? Or I think as a relational therapist, I really try to put things in a relational context like, well, what's your relationship with your phone? What's your relationship with your body? For every young man that's viewing porn on BYU campus, I pretty much would bet my last dollar that there's the same number of women not doing well with their own bodies.

What’s your relationship with food? What's your relationship with money? I mean, all of these things, you need to be able to know what it is for yourself. And what is your relationship with your phone? Are you going to bed with your phone? And how many hours a day are you spending on your phone?

I was just reading research, I had to speak at something down in Arizona last month about how society has kind of shifted with our socialization. And it said that just this last year, we came to a point where as US citizens we are actually on technology about a half an hour longer than we're not on technology every day.

Sara: Wow.

Tammy: It’s like 12 and a half hours on, 11 and a half hours off. And if eight of those hours are spent sleeping, then your waking hours so few actually are free from technology. And I think that we need to talk about that. What is your relationship with your technology? With gaming?

So as far as this perspective, anyone, I think, is worthy to date. Anyone is worthy to have friends. Anyone is worthy to feel loved and accepted and included. I mean, worthiness, your worth is everything. Your worth, I hate the word worthy. You're worth, shorten it a little, because your worth is everything to God, your worth should be everything to you. And so of course you're worthy to date, because you're getting to know, right?

Sara: I love that you say that. Just thank you for saying that because I agree 100%. Your worth is not going to change.

Tammy: No, never.

Sara: Never.

Tammy: Never, never. I always have a crisp $100 bill in class. And I hold it up and say how many of you want this $100 bill? Tell me who wants it. And I typically have about 300 students in a classroom and every hand is up, of course they want the $100 bill. So then I spit on it, and I wad it up and I stomp on it. And then I pick it up and spread it out and say, “Now how many of you want this $100 bill?” And everyone still wants it.

Sara: Yeah.

Tammy: And I said, “Why?” Because it still has the same value. No matter what's happened to you or what you've chosen, your worth hasn't changed, just like that $100 bill’s worth didn't change after it had gone through some hard things, right?

Sara: Yes, so good.

Tammy: Anyway, to go back to when I should start talking about this in my relationship. I think, first of all, when we talk about anything like this, we need to talk about it from a relational standpoint. I'll be honest, I've gotten into a bad habit. Tammy Hill, who teaches people not to do this, has gotten into the bad habit of taking my phone to bed.

And probably over the course of the last year I scroll at midnight, I'm sometimes on there at two in the morning. And I don't like that about myself right now and so I'm just being honest, I need to change that. What is my relationship with other things? With money? With gambling? There's just so many different things, but always put it into a relational component, because the way you're responding to it is what's most important anyway.

And then as far as disclosure in a relationship, to me, you absolutely have to be in a space in a relationship where you have enough trust and enough friendship that you can talk about things like this. It has to be over a course of time.

And I've had students tell me that they've had girls that they've taken out and on the first or second date they ask, “Well, tell me about your history with pornography.” And to me that sends one really bad message, it’s saying are you going to be worth my time?

Sara: Yeah.

Tammy: And that absolutely hurts. I've cried over that when people tell me that, because that hurt is against everything. Of course this person is still worth your time. But that's what that question is saying, right? And that's so inappropriate. So I think it has to be over a course of time where you've earned trust, there's evidence that there's trust there.

And then I always encourage people to go from an I perspective. In advance let them know there's some things I want to kind of talk about with you and let you know a little bit about myself. And is there a time this next week that we could have some time together that would be uninterrupted to do that? And so there's preparation, they know it’s going to happen.

And then have that time and just say, I love how our relationship is going. And as we become better friends, I feel I want you to know more of me. And so I'm going to share with you my relationship with pornography, or my relationship with whatever it is that you want to disclose. And I hope that this won't scare you away, but I do believe that if we are going to be able to move forward in a relationship that's trustworthy, which is what we both want, I need to be able to tell you a little bit about my relationship with porn.

Sara: I love that. It sounds almost like you're saying like, I want you to know this about me, I want to connect with you. Here's the next level for us and here's a way I can connect with you and tell you about this, not just confess it to you.

Tammy: Right. And if you're wanting to know about the person you're dating, I just don't think it's ever appropriate for you to point a finger and say tell me about this. Every time you point a finger, three are pointing right back at you.

I think it has to, on either side, come from a point of I need you to know this about how I treat my body and whatever I do in secret with my binge eating, or my cutting, or whatever. I'm going to let you know that this is something I'm working through and struggling with. It's been a problem since high school and I'm not happy about it, I feel a lot of shame about it, or guilt about it. And this is how I'm trying to get better.

So you've created this environment where you're disclosing something. And if this is a relationship that has some trust and deep and abiding friendship, that is a perfect environment for this person, this other person to say, “Wow, thank you. Let me tell you a little bit about me, too.”

Sara: So good.

Tammy: They have to earn the right to hear your story, right? Isn't that Brené Brown that says that?

Sara: It sounds like something she would say. But I do love that. Yeah, they have to earn the right to hear that and for that trust. You don't just have to give it to them, You don't owe that part of yourself to anyone.

Tammy: Right.

Sara: So good. And I think that's so fascinating too, how you're talking about our relationships with our bodies. And how true is that, that women have just as many issues, if not more, like relational issues with our bodies.

And so if you think of your relationship with pornography and what that relationship is with your body, there's some maybe unhealthy dynamics there, and women out the same stuff. We've got lots of eating disorders, or even just like how we talk to ourselves. And that's just such a beautiful way to look at it that can really decrease shame and stigma.

Tammy: Yeah, and increase connection. And really, to me, I think I'm such a big proponent of dating situations that you understand what physical touch, romantic physical touch represents for you. It is a symbol of something, it should have meaning.

And so if you're with this person dating and you're making out all the time, which is fun, I love kissing, I just think it's a wonderful part of life. So I understand enjoying that. But it needs to have some depth. It needs to need something.

And I guess the reason I say that is if you're wanting to get to a place where you can disclose this important information we just talked about with this person in this relationship, I want you to pause for a minute and observe what's going on in the relationship because is your physical touch symbolic of the emotional depth that you already share? Because if it isn't matching up, it's not time to do this at all.

It's time to pull back physically and really examine what is the depth of friendship and emotional trust that we have together. And that comes when we take off the physical aspect of the relationship and really put time and energy into getting to know one another on a day to day, real life kind of. Because dating isn’t an extension of real life, right?

Dating, you're spending money, you smell good, you look good, it's fun, right? But marriage is an extension of real life. Its ups and downs, bills, sickness, all of it. And so I really believe dating experiences need to incorporate real life experiences.

And so if you're taking the physical aspect off the table and really trying to learn, not that you can't have fun, I’m not meaning that, but that there's some things that are that you're really learning about each other. And you really like this person, not because the way they look or the way they kiss, but because, wow, she just helped that woman in the grocery store, or he just barely –

I actually had a client yesterday tell me when she fell in love with her husband. They were sledding. And as they were sledding, there was a little boy that was sledding at the same time who fell off of his sled and hit his tooth and lip and was bleeding and it was just a little boy. And his parents were way up there and didn't see what had happened to this little boy. And so her boyfriend at that time, got up and went over and talked to this little boy and held his hand and carried his sled up the hill.

And that is when she said, I loved him, because I saw this quality about him. When you are observing in each other significant things like that, that's when it's time to share this really important part of yourself.

Sara: Yeah, so good. Oh, I love that. Thank you. That's perfect.

Tammy: You’re welcome.

Sara: One thing that might be worth bringing up here, I talked to Richard Ostler about this a little bit because he's awesome. I love him.

Tammy: I love them, too.

Sara: Yeah, he's amazing. Because he said sometimes when women are asking very early, like on a second date, tell me about your history with pornography, kind of asking is this worth my time? That sometimes comes from messages that they get from family or from religious leaders. You know, don't date anyone who has a history with porn.

I have friends whose mission president told them that. And it's something, I hope we're hearing it less, but I don't know. Like don't date someone who's struggling with porn. What would you say about that?

Tammy: Absolutely, don't listen to those messages. And in all honesty, people are well intentioned with what it is that they're saying or the advice that they're giving. Parents only want what's best for their children, right? And I’m the same way, I want the best for my children. You want the best for your children.

I think being cautious about the messages that we might be sending. I guess I was at therapy all day yesterday, this is another example. A young woman really likes the guy she's dating and her parents told her last weekend that they think she can do better. So now she's like, can I really like him?

Sara: Yeah.

Tammy: You see, we sometimes just give our kids stupid messages. And I don't know how, I don't know how that will ever stop. Maybe educating parents a little bit better. Or maybe this is the generation that's finally going to get it and say, yeah, you don't say stuff like that. It's not helpful to say things like that.

So I would hope parents would not do things like that and I certainly hope mission presidents wouldn't be telling their missionaries to do that. But I understand what you're saying. I don't know if I'm expressing myself really clearly right there.

Sara: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of evidence that we're all just doing better. Every year we're just doing better and more people are just doing better. And so hopefully those messages aren't so loud. And so there is like, I always want to be really sensitive too to women who have experienced betrayal trauma from that.

Tammy: For sure.

Sara: And I don't typically, like that's just not the people that I usually talk to, but I do want to be a little sensitive to that. But what I would say is we want to look underneath the surface too. So like there's the porn use, but then what else is there? And look at what else is there? Are they pressuring you to do things that you don't want to do? Is it a consensual relationship? Is there a connection? Is there lying? Do you trust them?

That's going to be a way bigger indicator of whether or not you want to continue to be with this person then just are they viewing porn?

Tammy: Absolutely, Sara. Absolutely. And if you look underneath the porn issue, I firmly believe it's about emotional regulation. That this person, this is how they've kind of learned to regulate emotions. I eat cookies. I can pass up ice cream, cake, I can care less. But when I'm feeling sad or I'm feeling whatever, I bake cookies, I eat a dozen and that's just my thing.

We all do something unhealthy to cope. And unfortunately, one way that a lot of young people have gotten into the habit of coping is through porn.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, so many people, I can't tell you how many people when they recognize that's what's happening, it's just an immediate shame reducer. They’re like, oh, no wonder, I feel like crap about myself.

And for so many, and you probably see this with your students, too. I just love, you know, like my heart just goes to the BYU students or the returned missionaries, or people who really, a lot of it really is driven by I’m just not good enough, I’m just not good enough. And I just don't know what to do. And it's so painful for me to think that and to feel that, that I go to porn. That's just my coping mechanism.

Tammy: And I think this is one way that this links back to your first question, really, is loneliness is part of that feeling that you start turning to practices that are not healthy to help you regulate that lonely emotion. And so the same kind of things, do things that you love, choose to do things, learn new things, choose to surround yourself with people that know you and enjoy you. Do the things that help you emotionally regulate that are constructive rather than detrimental.

Sara: Yeah, really good. Thank you. So good, so much good wisdom. Okay, anything else that you might want to share on this topic or say to my audience or people who are struggling with porn?

Tammy: I just want you to know that I think some of the people I've worked with, by the way, I mostly send people to you that are coming in because I think that you're so good at this. And people that have this porn issue are some of the coolest people I've ever met and I have such high regard and respect for the work they're doing.

I think it's really important for us all to have compassion. A lot of the people that I visited with and the students I visit with as well, they've started picking up on this habit really young, 9, 10, 11 years old, 12 years old. And that's way before the prefrontal cortex was ever fully developed at the age of 25 to 30.

They've learned with their amygdala how to cope. And then now in their 20s and their prefrontal cortex is filling in, and that's where we have rational thought and where we're able to make wise choices and live congruent with who we want to be. And we just have to have compassion for those little people that got into patterns before they had the thinking capacity, really, to know the difference.

Sara: Yeah, so much compassion and even like, it's not your fault. It wasn't your fault. You grew up with the Internet. You didn’t know better, we weren’t taught.

Tammy: Yes, if I could go back, I would not give my kids the smartphones.  Probably six, well between Jeff and I, we have 12 children. And there were six teenagers in this house at one time.

Sara: Wow.

Tammy: And one Christmas, we gave them all smartphones and they were between the ages of about 14 and 17. And so that's a time to have [inaudible]. But I think I wish I maybe wouldn’t have done that. I don't think that that was probably the smartest thing for me to do. Anyway, so compassion for ourselves as well. We didn't know.

Sara: We didn't know.

Tammy: Everybody's got a smartphone. If we don't have a smartphone, we're the only ones without a smartphone. And our teachers require us to have smartphones. I mean all the things that we heard, we thought, oh, they must need smartphones, right?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, you didn't know. But that's great advice, I'm going to keep that in mind with my kids. I mean I already am. I have a younger sister who says the same thing to me because I didn't grow up with smartphones, but she did. She's like, don't do it. Don’t do it.

Tammy: Yeah, all of our older kids say the same thing. They didn't have things to waste their time on and the compulsion to – I'm there. I’m there now, I want to just sit and kind of veg after a day on my phone for an hour. That never was even part of our lives, right? And I know my older kids surely see a difference that way between the younger ones.

Are you familiar with Kristen Jensen, the work she does?

Sara: No.

Tammy: She wrote the book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures.

Sara: Oh, yeah, I've heard of that book.

Tammy: It’s the best book on understanding porn use for children. And I've done several podcasts with her. Her website and her whole business is called Defend Young Minds. If there are parents or people who are wanting to be parents in the future listening regularly to your podcast, I certainly would encourage them to go to Defend Young Minds, it's on Instagram and it's a website.

She does so much good work helping parents know what's the best filter right now, what is the latest little icon on smartphones that actually have things hidden underneath it? It is such invaluable information from her.

Sara: So good. I just followed her. Awesome, thank you. That's so helpful. And maybe I'll reach out to her and see if I can get her to come on the podcast.

Tammy: Oh my gosh, she's so good. She's so good to talk to. She has so many great ideas about how to, you know, with children, with actions. And she’s awesome.

Sara: So good. I just want to make sure I clarify, because what I say in my message, I'm like, filters aren't a long term solution for you. But when it comes to kids, you have to have them. They have to be a protective measure, in my opinion. And so when I say filters aren't a long term solution, I'm not saying don't ever use them. I'm just saying there's some more work to do here.

Tammy: To be wise. And the thing that I learned from her last time we did a podcast together is, maybe you know this, where are children getting access to the internet the most?

Sara: Is it video games?

Tammy: At their grandparents houses.

Sara: Oh.

Tammy: And grandparents have no idea to have filters.

Sara: Yeah. Okay, good to know.

Tammy: I mean, it was such an eye opening conversation. It's like, wow, I never thought of that.

Sara: Yeah, me neither. Okay, well, we've covered a lot. Thank you so much for coming on today. Yeah, so Replenish, go buy Replenish, it's an amazing book. Worth it if you have a partner that you're working on creating sexual fulfillment with. It's a really awesome book. You’ve got some really great children's books for those who are in the LDS sphere. The book, Replenish, says it is a guide for LDS couples but I think it's really valuable even if you're not LDS, absolutely.

Tammy: I agree. I’m not pushing the LDS faith. I do have a spiritual component that sex is a spiritual thing.

Sara: Yeah, yeah. Where else can we find you?

Tammy: I host the Live Your Why podcast, which you’ve been a guest on before. I have TammyHill.com and I'm on Instagram. Those are the ways to find me the easiest, I think.

Sara: Cool. Well thank you so much for coming on, super appreciate it.

Tammy: Thank you. So fun to see you again. Take care.

Sara: Yeah, you too. All right, you guys. Have a great week. Talk to you later. Bye bye.

I want to invite you to come and listen to my free class, How To Overcome Pornography For Good Without Using Willpower. We talk about how to stop giving in to urges without pure willpower or relying on phone filters so that you can actually stop wanting pornography.

We talk about how to stop giving up after a few weeks or months. And spoiler alert, the answer isn’t have more willpower. And then lastly, we talk about how to make a life without porn easily sustainable and permanent.

If you’re trying to quit porn, this class is a game changer. So you can go and sign up at Sarabrewer.com/masterclass, and it is totally free.


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